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Re: (idm) grafikloo

13 messages · 8 participants · spans 2 days · search this subject
◇ merged from 2 subjects: (idm) graffiti and mass art (long) · (idm) grafikloo
1999-05-08 02:14c g (idm) grafikloo
1999-05-08 05:26Re: (idm) grafikloo
1999-05-08 14:07Kelley Hackett RE: (idm) grafikloo
1999-05-09 14:44Tomas Jirku Re: (idm) grafikloo
1999-05-09 15:57Rjyan C Kidwell Re: (idm) grafikloo
1999-05-09 19:11~\(\({\[Endemic~Distortion\]}\)\)~ Re: (idm) grafikloo
1999-05-09 22:40Rjyan C Kidwell Re: (idm) grafikloo
1999-05-09 23:59~\(\({\[Endemic~Distortion\]}\)\)~ Re: (idm) grafikloo
1999-05-10 01:57Rjyan C Kidwell Re: (idm) grafikloo
1999-05-10 02:08~\(\({\[Endemic~Distortion\]}\)\)~ Re: (idm) grafikloo
└─ 1999-05-09 23:46Chris.Hilker Re: (idm) grafikloo
1999-05-10 12:52Kelley Hackett RE: (idm) grafikloo
└─ 1999-05-10 13:22Sam Frank (idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
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1999-05-08 02:14c g> Graffitti "art"? > Last I heard, that was called "vandalism". > Perhaps we should put br
From:
c g
To:
Date:
Fri, 7 May 1999 19:14:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
(idm) grafikloo
permalink · <19990508021412.18231.rocketmail@web104.yahoomail.com>
quoted 5 lines Graffitti "art"?> Graffitti "art"? > Last I heard, that was called "vandalism". > Perhaps we should put broken windows, slashed tires, and litter on display > in galleries as well. > (Never mind, that's been done already.)
hey- that's ridiculous! artistic graffiti is art man. no questions. are you saying the spraypaint stuff is not art? it's also only got one "t". and isnt kelley a female? -Chrislongib G === _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
1999-05-08 05:26Sndbyte@aol.comYes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an individual a right to destro
From:
To:
Date:
Sat, 8 May 1999 01:26:08 EDT
Subject:
Re: (idm) grafikloo
permalink · <a053a491.246524f0@aol.com>
Yes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an individual a right to destroy another's property?
1999-05-08 14:07Kelley HackettI can never shut my big mouth, but what gives a country the right to destroy millions for
From:
Kelley Hackett
To:
'Sndbyte@aol.com'
Cc:
Date:
Sat, 8 May 1999 09:07:22 -0500
Subject:
RE: (idm) grafikloo
permalink · <397CA68ABF5AD111863C00805F0DDE980B07BC@aba.iupui.edu>
I can never shut my big mouth, but what gives a country the right to destroy millions for its uncivilized form of existence? Sorry, I should say, a right does not seem to be the proper angle here----for if we all did things based upon rights, the whole fucking world would be a better place! Now, I am not for destroying anothers property, but a building or something---ha ha ha I dont think its destroyed! Plus, if a state or Nation, has billions of dollars to fly a person off the earth, or pays them millions to shoot a circular object, a ball, thru a basket---then why in the hell would anyone complain about writing on a wall--when it can easily be removed. Ask some one who lives in Chicago about this----they are cleaning up the Grafiti there!(Can never get all of it---goody0 Hk-90!
quoted 9 lines -----Original Message-----> -----Original Message----- > From: Sndbyte@aol.com [SMTP:Sndbyte@aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 1999 12:26 AM > To: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: (idm) grafikloo > > Yes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an > individual a > right to destroy another's property?
1999-05-09 14:44Tomas Jirku>Yes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an >individual a >right to des
From:
Tomas Jirku
To:
Date:
Sun, 09 May 1999 10:44:34 -0400
Subject:
Re: (idm) grafikloo
permalink · <37359F52.71D0@yirku.com>
quoted 2 lines Yes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an >individual a>Yes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an >individual a >right to destroy another's property?
it's not destruction, and private property is an overrated concept anyhow. tomas
1999-05-09 15:57Rjyan C Kidwell>Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 01:26:08 EDT >From: Sndbyte@aol.com >Subject: Re: (idm) grafikloo >
From:
Rjyan C Kidwell
To:
Date:
Sun, 9 May 1999 11:57:57 -0400
Subject:
Re: (idm) grafikloo
permalink · <19990509.142951.12638.0.cardhore@juno.com>
quoted 5 lines Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 01:26:08 EDT>Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 01:26:08 EDT >From: Sndbyte@aol.com >Subject: Re: (idm) grafikloo > >Yes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an
individual a
quoted 1 line right to destroy another's property?>right to destroy another's property?
what gives you the right to own things? ,rj../ ___,"www.gl.umbc.edu/~nworth1 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
1999-05-09 19:11~\(\({\[Endemic~Distortion\]}\)\)~In that case, mind if I come over and abscond with your music collection :^D? jeff Tomas J
From:
~\(\({\[Endemic~Distortion\]}\)\)~
To:
Cc:
It'ssupposedtosounDlikethat,moM
Date:
Sun, 09 May 1999 12:11:14 -0700
Subject:
Re: (idm) grafikloo
permalink · <3735DDD2.C3DA787C@flash.net>
In that case, mind if I come over and abscond with your music collection :^D? jeff Tomas Jirku wrote:
quoted 7 lines Yes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an >individual a> >Yes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an >individual a > >right to destroy another's property? > > it's not destruction, and private property is an overrated concept > anyhow. > > tomas
-- jeff "10,000 people all screaming the same thing at the same time are wrong, even if they're right." dancing/about/architecture "...with wandering steps and slow..." ICQ904008
1999-05-09 22:40Rjyan C Kidwell>>>Yes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an >>>individual a right to
From:
Rjyan C Kidwell
To:
Cc:
Date:
Sun, 9 May 1999 18:40:29 -0400
Subject:
Re: (idm) grafikloo
permalink · <19990509.184038.9262.0.cardhore@juno.com>
quoted 7 lines Yes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an>>>Yes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an >>>individual a right to destroy another's property? >> >> what gives you the right to own things? > >Again, can I come over and test this proposition with your music >collection?
not until you answer my previous question with a declarative statement. rjck.,/__ ,)__www.gl.umbc.edu/~nworth1 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
1999-05-09 23:59~\(\({\[Endemic~Distortion\]}\)\)~Again, can I come over and test this proposition with your music collection? jeff Rjyan C
From:
~\(\({\[Endemic~Distortion\]}\)\)~
To:
Rjyan C Kidwell
Cc:
It'ssupposedtosounDlikethat,moM
Date:
Sun, 09 May 1999 16:59:15 -0700
Subject:
Re: (idm) grafikloo
permalink · <37362153.2846DAF1@flash.net>
Again, can I come over and test this proposition with your music collection? jeff Rjyan C Kidwell wrote:
quoted 17 lines Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 01:26:08 EDT> >Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 01:26:08 EDT > >From: Sndbyte@aol.com > >Subject: Re: (idm) grafikloo > > > >Yes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an > individual a > >right to destroy another's property? > > what gives you the right to own things? > > ,rj../ > ___,"www.gl.umbc.edu/~nworth1 > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-- jeff "10,000 people all screaming the same thing at the same time are wrong, even if they're right." dancing/about/architecture "...with wandering steps and slow..." ICQ904008
1999-05-10 01:57Rjyan C Kidwell>Well, we are quite far afield from the topic of graffiti. It might >also be asked "what g
From:
Rjyan C Kidwell
To:
Cc:
Date:
Sun, 9 May 1999 21:57:07 -0400
Subject:
Re: (idm) grafikloo
permalink · <19990509.215719.4334.2.cardhore@juno.com>
quoted 2 lines Well, we are quite far afield from the topic of graffiti. It might>Well, we are quite far afield from the topic of graffiti. It might >also be asked "what gives anyone the right to foist their concept of art
on
quoted 1 line people in the public forum as such?". The burden of proof would actually>people in the public forum as such?". The burden of proof would actually
lie
quoted 2 lines with you, though, as the commonly accepted position IS that of the>with you, though, as the commonly accepted position IS that of the >propriety of personal ownership - notwithstanding the fact that you
slipped your
quoted 1 line premise under the door in the form of a question - and you need to>premise under the door in the form of a question - and you need to
unseat the
quoted 1 line established position before proceeding to establish a new one.>established position before proceeding to establish a new one.
hmm, where did you get the rule that you "need to unseat the established position before proceeding to establish a new one?" i'm sure you probably know more about logic than me, but as far as i've found in my own argumentative exploits it's a nasty catch-22... you can't unseat the established position with nothing solid to replace it with. ya know, you're always hearing people say, "Well, maybe you're right, maybe _____ is wrong, but there's no better way, is there?" and then _____ stays put. and lots of times, without a new position, you'll never see that the old one needs unseating. for example, Galileo couldn't have said, "Shit! This Aristotelian view of the heavens is totalyl wrong!" before he looked in his telescope and saw the moons of Jupiter and the craters on the moon and all that.
quoted 1 line Even so, I'd go with this : Personal investment in said object(s) along>Even so, I'd go with this : Personal investment in said object(s) along
the lines
quoted 2 lines of commonly accepted currency and the responsibilities thereof in the>of commonly accepted currency and the responsibilities thereof in the >community at large. Behind this would lie the self-evident (imo, of
course)
quoted 1 line problem of human nature....while a world where we dole all things out>problem of human nature....while a world where we dole all things out
equitably
quoted 2 lines is a nice ideal, it doesn't seem to fit well into the experience of>is a nice ideal, it doesn't seem to fit well into the experience of >reality. We all tend to be a tad selfish, greedy and get-over at times.
Without
quoted 2 lines the conventions we recognize as boundries and ownership, I'm not at all>the conventions we recognize as boundries and ownership, I'm not at all >convinced that we wouldn't be even less civilized than we are.
human nature? experience of reality? that's awful presumptive of you, thinking that the "reality" of our history is the only possible way. actually, i'd think that looking back into our history, it's pretty convincing that the way we've been going about things -- capitalism and all its components, specifically slash-and-burnism, dominateeverythingism, getrichandstayrichism, and lockupthefoodism -- is something to rebel from, not reluctantly defend. ,rj../ ___,"www.gl.umbc.edu/~nworth1 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
1999-05-10 02:08~\(\({\[Endemic~Distortion\]}\)\)~Well, we are quite far afield from the topic of graffiti. It might also be asked "what giv
From:
~\(\({\[Endemic~Distortion\]}\)\)~
To:
Rjyan C Kidwell
Cc:
Date:
Sun, 09 May 1999 19:08:00 -0700
Subject:
Re: (idm) grafikloo
permalink · <37363F80.19A68F01@flash.net>
Well, we are quite far afield from the topic of graffiti. It might also be asked "what gives anyone the right to foist their concept of art on people in the public forum as such?". The burden of proof would actually lie with you, though, as the commonly accepted position IS that of the propriety of personal ownership - notwithstanding the fact that you slipped your premise under the door in the form of a question - and you need to unseat the established position before proceeding to establish a new one. Even so, I'd go with this : Personal investment in said object(s) along the lines of commonly accepted currency and the responsibilities thereof in the community at large. Behind this would lie the self-evident (imo, of course) problem of human nature....while a world where we dole all things out equitably is a nice ideal, it doesn't seem to fit well into the experience of reality. We all tend to be a tad selfish, greedy and get-over at times. Without the conventions we recognize as boundries and ownership, I'm not at all convinced that we wouldn't be even less civilized than we are. NOW...really, I like graffiti in most cases. I'm just not certain it's entirely ethical in every situation. Listcontent: Who else was abit disappointed in the Depth Charge Electro-Boogie? I guess I was just expecting a bit more. Just me, or...? jeff Rjyan C Kidwell wrote:
quoted 18 lines Yes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an> >>>Yes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an > >>>individual a right to destroy another's property? > >> > >> what gives you the right to own things? > > > >Again, can I come over and test this proposition with your music > >collection? > > not until you answer my previous question > with a declarative statement. > > rjck.,/__ > ,)__www.gl.umbc.edu/~nworth1 > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
-- jeff "10,000 people all screaming the same thing at the same time are wrong, even if they're right." dancing/about/architecture "...with wandering steps and slow..." ICQ904008
1999-05-09 23:46Chris.Hilker>Well, we are quite far afield from the topic of graffiti. Is that what this list is about
From:
Chris.Hilker
To:
Ironic Dance Music
Date:
Sun, 9 May 1999 16:46:39 -0700
Subject:
Re: (idm) grafikloo
Reply to:
Re: (idm) grafikloo
permalink · <l03130300b35bce7a0d28@[207.240.169.80]>
quoted 1 line Well, we are quite far afield from the topic of graffiti.>Well, we are quite far afield from the topic of graffiti.
Is that what this list is about? Thanks for the pointer.
quoted 3 lines It might also be>It might also be >asked "what gives anyone the right to foist their concept of art on people >in the public forum as such?".
Or, indeed, what gives anyone the right to post this offtopic bullshit to the IDM list. Take it to private mail. C. -- Chris.Hilker (cspot@hyperreal.org)
1999-05-10 12:52Kelley HackettHmmmmmm. Rjyan's point is well taken(or should I say his question). I dont want to get in
From:
Kelley Hackett
To:
'jpklein@flash.net' , 'idm@hyperreal.org'
Date:
Mon, 10 May 1999 07:52:00 -0500
Subject:
RE: (idm) grafikloo
permalink · <397CA68ABF5AD111863C00805F0DDE980B07C7@aba.iupui.edu>
Hmmmmmm. Rjyan's point is well taken(or should I say his question). I dont want to get in the logical bullshit of it, cuz its mere rhetoric but here is the thing! If ya look at many of the countries in the West, they have recieved many of their material items at the expense of others(Yes, fucking yes this is general so dont get bent out of shape by my general terms---but read your history books though)----thus this, in my eyes, is a form of stealing-----as Rjyan question kinda dictates----it wasnt yours in the beginning! In fact, when ya hit that cold and dark ass ground(when ya die) then who's property does ones belong to. Typically we humans just past our items along to our family members, those same items that we got from someone else---. Vicious cyle of human culture--- So, to try and tie this all together---a building, a building, hmmmm. It was built by a numerous amout of people for one person or one group of people----but the ownership part is tricky! Here again, if ya think about it, we dont even own our bodies---------but along the graffiti lines----just spray all the walls with the best graffiti---and let me sit back and get excited! Hk-90!
quoted 76 lines -----Original Message-----> -----Original Message----- > From: ~(({[Endemic~Distortion]}))~ [SMTP:jpklein@flash.net] > Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 9:08 PM > To: Rjyan C Kidwell > Cc: idm@hyperreal.org > Subject: Re: (idm) grafikloo > > Well, we are quite far afield from the topic of graffiti. It might > also be > asked "what gives anyone the right to foist their concept of art on > people > in the public forum as such?". The burden of proof would actually lie > with > you, though, as the commonly accepted position IS that of the > propriety of > personal ownership - notwithstanding the fact that you slipped your > premise > under the door in the form of a question - and you need to unseat the > established position before proceeding to establish a new one. Even > so, I'd > go with this : Personal investment in said object(s) along the lines > of > commonly accepted currency and the responsibilities thereof in the > community > at large. Behind this would lie the self-evident (imo, of course) > problem of > human nature....while a world where we dole all things out equitably > is a > nice ideal, it doesn't seem to fit well into the experience of > reality. We > all tend to be a tad selfish, greedy and get-over at times. Without > the > conventions we recognize as boundries and ownership, I'm not at all > convinced that we wouldn't be even less civilized than we are. > NOW...really, > I like graffiti in most cases. I'm just not certain it's entirely > ethical in > every situation. > Listcontent: Who else was abit disappointed in the Depth Charge > Electro-Boogie? I guess I was just expecting a bit more. Just me, > or...? > > jeff > > Rjyan C Kidwell wrote: > > > >>>Yes, graffiti is art, but it is also vandalism. What gives an > > >>>individual a right to destroy another's property? > > >> > > >> what gives you the right to own things? > > > > > >Again, can I come over and test this proposition with your music > > >collection? > > > > not until you answer my previous question > > with a declarative statement. > > > > rjck.,/__ > > ,)__www.gl.umbc.edu/~nworth1 > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at > http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > -- > jeff > > "10,000 people all screaming the same thing at the same time are > wrong, even > if they're right." > > dancing/about/architecture "...with wandering steps and slow..." > ICQ904008 >
1999-05-10 13:22Sam FrankWhile I don't want to linger too long on the graf aspect of this thread, it could raise in
From:
Sam Frank
To:
Kelley Hackett
Cc:
'jpklein@flash.net' , 'idm@hyperreal.org'
Date:
Mon, 10 May 1999 09:22:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
(idm) Graffiti and mass art (long)
Reply to:
RE: (idm) grafikloo
permalink · <Pine.GSO.3.94.990510090023.8349A-100000@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>
While I don't want to linger too long on the graf aspect of this thread, it could raise interesting questions about art in public spaces. I think one way of thinking about graffiti is that it takes all public space as a canvas for art. Admitedly, this sometimes conflicts with more legal and traditional definitions of public space, but one way of thinking about such space is that if it's out in the open for everybody to see, it's fair game for all viewers to recreate in a way they like. Is it fair that only those who own property get to define what we see on our walls, billboards, etc. when we walk around every day? Isn't that a fundamentally elitist definition of art and visual culture? Graffiti artists aren't generally breaking into priviate property and defacing that--almost by definition, they're creating where other people can see it. Now it possible to argue with that conception of public space, and I don't have a complete attachment to it, although it has a certain appeal. But what do you think about other anti-elitist, possibly annoying forms of public art? What about music blasted from boomboxes? Killer bass in low-riding cars? Audio terrorism is general, where one person imposes his or her musical tastes on the public? And before you say that's just noise pollution, consider the musical tastes that are imposed on us all the time, in a state-sanctioned way. Elevator music in stores is the most glaring example. Might it not be more democratic to let everybody who's interested compete for our ears, rather than just those with the money to play us music that will increase our sales rates, as scientifically verified by consumer experts? The next step becomes more aggresively pirate art. Pirate radio for example, is a kind of break-in to private airwaves, although why a public resource has been privatized like that is a moral stumper (not an economic one mind you). Defacing billboards, often to subvert their meaning (like the artists who changed Amelia Earhart's Apple ad to "Think Doomed"). I need to read more about the Situationists, but it seems like one of the few ways to avoid playing proscripted roles in a mass media culture is to subvert spectacle society, and reclaim public space for individuals. IDM loves to talk about indie labels, avoiding the hegemony of the major labels, etc. But art like graffiti in effect takes discussions of art out of the consumer context altogether. Graffiti isn't bought or sold (except in commodified, bastardized versions), but just is. Thus, it has more artistic integrity than any art for sale, because it answers to nobody, eexcept perhaps the police. Here, the artist controls who sees their work and when--the tradeoff is that there ain't a way to make a living doing real graffiti. Anyway, ponder that before criticizing graffiti out of hand. personally, i think it would be a more interesting world if everybody started making art and music and broadcasting it to the public. It might disintegrate into a cacophony, indeed probably would, but it would be fun, messy, dirty, and most of all, not corporate. Comrade Sam sez "Power to the people!"