IDM Mailing Archive

1999-04-20 22:26Sam FrankI'm trying to work out a possible paper topic, and I have two in mind, but I'm not sure ho

From:: Sam Frank <samuel.frank@yale.edu>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:26:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy

I'm trying to work out a possible paper topic, and I have two in mind, but I'm not sure how much documentation there is in magazines and books, so I'll raise my questions here first... 1) In a discussion with a friend about how dinky old-skool hip-hop beats were, and how cheesy the rapping was, he said something to the effect of "the lyrics evolved because the beats evolved." By that he meant that the electro sound determined the cheesy party rapping, and that once electro was appropriated by Freestyle, and hip-hop became denser, then rhyming styles evolved too. Now, I'm sure this "beat determinism" isn't entirely accurate, but it has a certain amount of possibility--Chuck D wouldn't have sounded the same without the Bomb Squad fucking shit up behind him, etc. Is there any literature out there on the development of hip-hop production? What about on the x0x instruments, and their relationship to hip-hop? My teacher said something about dub/reggae behaving the sme way, that the toasters keyed off the production with their rhyming style. I'd also postulate that the reason jungle MCs tend to suck is because the beats are too fast for them to stress words right, among other difficulties, so their rhymes sound enormously awkward. Anyway, any literature on instruments/drum patterns/production/rhyme styles in hip-hip/dub/jungle, etc would be greatly appreciated. Is there a good magazine article on drum machines? 2)Have any artists besides Oval exploited the theoretical possibilities of the CD medium? What can you really do with the mdeium anyway, besides playing a disk straight, or making it skip? Are there any other possible manipulations? Hidden tracks don't particularly interest me. Obviously, with records, plenty of people have fucked with the medium itself--Marclay, turntablists, etc. Cd's are obviously harder to manipualte, but that doesn't mean people haven't done it. Are there any writing which theorize about the consequences of didgital playback and the CD medium? Has Lesser done much with skipping CDs? I've heard the name Gilles Deleuze dropped now and then--what relation does he play to all of this? Any leads would be much appreciated, whether they're artists to listen to, things to read, or people to contact. I'm trying to figure out whether either of these are feasible topics. Later Sam

1999-04-20 22:47Andrew Duke Cognition/In The MixSam Frank wrote: > 1) In a discussion with a friend about how dinky old-skool hip-hop beat

From:: Andrew Duke Cognition/In The Mix <cognition@globalserve.net>
To:: Sam Frank <samuel.frank@yale.edu>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:47:23 -0300
Subject:: Re: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy

Sam Frank wrote:

quoted 10 lines 1) In a discussion with a friend about how dinky old-skool hip-hop beats

> 1) In a discussion with a friend about how dinky old-skool hip-hop beats > were, > and how cheesy the rapping was, he said something to the effect of "the > lyrics evolved because the beats evolved." By that he meant that the > electro sound determined the cheesy party rapping, and that once electro > was appropriated by Freestyle, and hip-hop became denser, then rhyming > styles evolved too. Now, I'm sure this "beat determinism" isn't entirely > accurate, but it has a certain amount of possibility--Chuck D wouldn't > have sounded the same without the Bomb Squad fucking shit up behind him, > etc.

sam: i understand what you're saying, but just check out some rap acapellas:put on a public enemy track's acapella version and you will *still* hear the power behind chuck d's lyrics. re: rappers: if you ("you" being "the person rapping") have something to say, you have something to say, that's my opinion. andrew :)

1999-04-20 23:19Sam Frank> sam: i understand what you're saying, but just check out some rap > acapellas:put on a p

From:: Sam Frank <samuel.frank@yale.edu>
To:: Andrew Duke Cognition/In The Mix <cognition@canada.com>
Cc:: Sam Frank <samuel.frank@yale.edu>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:19:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy

quoted 7 lines sam: i understand what you're saying, but just check out some rap

> sam: i understand what you're saying, but just check out some rap > acapellas:put on a public enemy track's acapella version and you will *still* > hear the power > behind chuck d's lyrics. re: rappers: if you ("you" being "the person > rapping") have something to say, you have something to > say, that's my opinion. andrew :) >

I don't dispute that. But it's not only what you say--it's how you say it. This goes back to something said a week or two ago, that he didn't think politics belong in muisc at all. Well, I'd say, they belong in music, but only if they fit in with the music--Chuck's politics are insperable from the Bomb Squad's production and his rhyming style. Politics are only bad when they clunk, but the same goes for any subject matter. The question is, without the Bomb Squad, would Chuck have rhymed the way he did?

1999-04-21 07:43MoonlightAt 07:47 PM 4/20/99 -0300, Andrew Duke Cognition/In The Mix wrote: >sam: i understand what

From:: Moonlight <roesch@augsburg.edu>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 02:43:46 -0500
Subject:: Re: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy

At 07:47 PM 4/20/99 -0300, Andrew Duke Cognition/In The Mix wrote:

quoted 3 lines sam: i understand what you're saying, but just check out some rap

>sam: i understand what you're saying, but just check out some rap >acapellas:put on a public enemy track's acapella version and you will *still* >hear the power behind chuck d's lyrics.

Yet the raps weren't created in a vacuum, they were in response to the beats. And listen to Chcuk D's weak raps over weak beats on the embarrasing "Autobiography of Mistachuck". Ugh. I forced myself to listen to the whole thing, and i had to force hard. _________________________________ Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu Augsburg College / Minneapolis / MN / USA http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/ The world's most complete Pork Recordings/Fila Brazillia site: http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ "The only disease we need in our blood is love" TRICKY

1999-04-20 23:26Tom MillarI think that "beat determinism" is a very effective theory. I think that what Sam is tryin

From:: Tom Millar <tmillar@utkux.utcc.utk.edu>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:26:06 -0400
Subject:: Re: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy

I think that "beat determinism" is a very effective theory. I think that what Sam is trying to say is that when the beats were locked-up drum machine electrowank, gated snares and so forth all over the place, the rapping ended up suffering from similarly stilted delivery and bad funk. It is notoriously difficult to sound good using a modern rap delivery style on top of syncopated-freakout bass drum patterns with too much reverb and choppy hi-hats. The raps had to be deliberately simplistic and each line was forced to carry about the same dynamic weight just to be heard clearly over the beats. When the beats became more sample-driven, tighter, and more reliant on live-feeling loops as opposed to the tyranny of the 16th-note resolution forced by older gear, the rapping opened up and was freed to stomp all over the place. When the rhythm underneath isn't tripping all over its own polyrhythms, it makes it easier for a rapper to play with his delivery and use _his_ polyrhythms, dragging and rushing over the beat to emphasize phrases. So I agree, the beats lead the way, though I'm sure plenty of rappers were all set to use some different delivery patterns as soon as affordable samplers and such hit the market. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's not a rap song to be heard, janky remixes aside, where the beats don't define to the last letter the method of rapping on top. Tom

1999-04-21 05:08Jeff PitrmanAt 07:26 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote: >I think that "beat determinism" is a very effective

From:: Jeff Pitrman <jpitrman@pobox.com>
To:: <tmillar@utkux.utcc.utk.edu>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:08:49 -0700
Subject:: Re: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy

At 07:26 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 3 lines I think that "beat determinism" is a very effective theory.

>I think that "beat determinism" is a very effective theory. > >So I agree, the beats lead the way, though I'm sure plenty of rappers were

all

quoted 1 line set to use some different delivery patterns as soon as affordable samplers

>set to use some different delivery patterns as soon as affordable samplers

and

quoted 1 line such hit the market. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's not a rap song

>such hit the market. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's not a rap song

to be

quoted 2 lines heard, janky remixes aside, where the beats don't define to the last letter

>heard, janky remixes aside, where the beats don't define to the last letter >the method of rapping on top.

Interesting thread. I'm going to agree here, with a current example. Think about a lot of newer commercial hip hop releases to be on the radio recently. The feeling of beats over the past couple years has really leaned towards that ... uh ... limping feeling. I don't know a more accurate word to describe it. But when you take the rapping of Bustah Rhymes or someone, and then just listen to the weird as fuck weight placement in the breaks, it sounds a lot different from the hip hop of the early 90s. A definite example of the reflection back and forth from rapping style and the accompanying beats. All of that newish Method Man end of the world apocalypse thing album has that sound. I wonder if there's some name or even general consensus of opinion about this sound. The other interesting thing is how current videos jerk around fast-slow-fast-slow to further emphasise that feel, and completely beat you over the head with it. I actually kind of like that feel ... The use of layers of samples has changed a lot. Listening to wu tang albums evolving, for instance, show that kind of change in density. Less big-spacious-crashing around against each other, like say old PE used to be. ---- "According to the law of primogeniture this moon-cheese is mine. The UN? Ha! I spit on the UN!" [Pokey the Penguin] 5678>> http://www.pobox.com/~jpitrman/

1999-04-21 08:45MoonlightDepending upon whehter y'all conisder Tricky and Massive Attack to be hip hop, there _is_

From:: Moonlight <roesch@augsburg.edu>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 03:45:22 -0500
Subject:: Re: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy

Depending upon whehter y'all conisder Tricky and Massive Attack to be hip hop, there _is_ a radically different style of hiphop going on right now. Tricky, 3D, and Daddy G started out weak like modern jungle MCs might be, but as time has gone on, they've developed very unique styles. I think the problem is that by being so different, they may been seen as no longer rap (post-rap then?). So the problem is that for people to accept rap as still rap, it has to confine their definitions of rap. So "rap" won't have much variety in vocal delivery because that's generally how people define rap, by the vocal delivery. Thus, what can change without changing acceptance, the production, varies much more. And as far as not much difference in rap vocals over the years, how much has singing changed lately? Yet production of "regular music" doesn't take priority. Lyrical content and voice do, pretty much the same way they always have. And for "beat determinism", the reason that beats and flows match up well is because if they didn't, someone's not doing their job well, and they won't sell. (unless it's a novelty tune). The roots put dnb on their new album, but they don't rap over it (i think i read a quote from their drummer/ringleader ?uestlove "Don't expect me to play that when i'm 50") np: "Can i get a...?" Jay-Z. _________________________________ Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu Augsburg College / Minneapolis / MN / USA http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/ The world's most complete Pork Recordings/Fila Brazillia site: http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ "The only disease we need in our blood is love" TRICKY

1999-04-21 20:04laermOn Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Moonlight wrote: > Depending upon whehter y'all conisder Tricky and M

From:: laerm <laerm@voicenet.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:04:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy

On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Moonlight wrote:

quoted 4 lines Depending upon whehter y'all conisder Tricky and Massive Attack to be

> Depending upon whehter y'all conisder Tricky and Massive Attack to be > hip hop, there _is_ a radically different style of hiphop going on right > now. Tricky, 3D, and Daddy G started out weak like modern jungle MCs > might be, but as time has gone on, they've developed very unique styles.

tricky sounds like mase, actually - lots of mumbling. but 3D and daddy g are definitely stylistically new. * #### a disturbance in a system. #### laerm. @voicenet.com ##:# to breathe within the system/the speed of light is yours icq: 5562209 how many angels? how many angels?

1999-04-22 14:47sun rob and his arkestra> notoriously difficult to sound good using a modern rap delivery style on top > of syncop

From:: sun rob and his arkestra <robert.geary@yale.edu>
To:: Tom Millar <tmillar@utkux.utcc.utk.edu>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:47:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm)long-ass Hip-hop history
Reply to:: Re: (idm) Hip-hop history/CD philosophy

quoted 4 lines notoriously difficult to sound good using a modern rap delivery style on top

> notoriously difficult to sound good using a modern rap delivery style on top > of syncopated-freakout bass drum patterns with too much reverb and choppy > hi-hats. The raps had to be deliberately simplistic and each line was forced > to carry about the same dynamic weight just to be heard clearly over the beats.

i don't know...check out the opener "table of contents" on the new roots record. the first half features deliberately crappy production, slimy hi-hats and all, and black thought wraps a modern, slightly old school flow around the beat. then it shifts to present-day production, and malik b throws down a more old school style rhyme. (of course, black thought is quite a talented mc, and could probably sound good over cheesy old beats!) i wonder how much of old hip hop vocal sound is due to the fact that what the first rappers were doing was totally new (debts to reggae toasters, etc, aside) and that it wasn't clear HOW to put words to music without singing, but still keeping a groove. i think it took a generation of kids who grew up hearing the first rappers to come up with _more_ ways to flow over a track (not necessarily _better_) than the first pioneers had time to. regarding public enemy: a lot mc's cite chuck d as an influence, but not in the way you might expect. most attribute to him the green light to speak on politics, say their opinions straight out, etc. i think in the case of public enemy, they are so monolithic that it will take years before we see more of their style distilled and copied...but the influence is there. the bomb squad, on the other hand, influenced production styles tremendously, in and out of hip hop. (honestly, take "tomorrow never knows" by the beatles, give it bomb squad production, and you have the chemical brothers.) similarly, i think we're just starting to see slick rick's vocal influence (well, putting snoop dogg aside), and it's been what...a decade since he was in his prime? so i think the problem is that _lasting_ influence takes time to be digested and show up, while pure style appropriation (legions of wannabe wu-tang, the glut of timbaland production that has rendered the R&B/rap distinction totally moot) sam, if you're still reading this, i think de la soul is one example of a 'kooky' vocal set who necessitated new styles of production. though they're so intertwined with prince paul's innovation it's hard to tell who was pushing who. then there's the obvious kool keith, who apparently has been driven to produce for himself. final note: someone mentioned that this might be a silly place to ask about hip hop history, which i disagree with. at the outset, there's a lot of hip hop influence in idm and on its artists, and good portion of what we discuss here IS hip hop if you define it liberally (most of the ninja tune roster, most dj's who get mentions on this list). finally, i know i was a hip hop head loooong before i heard aphex twin. rob

1999-04-22 16:42Andrew Hime> regarding public enemy: a lot mc's cite chuck d as an influence, but not > in the way yo

From:: Andrew Hime <hime@kali.wf.net>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:42:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm)long-ass Hip-hop history
Reply to:: Re: (idm)long-ass Hip-hop history

quoted 9 lines regarding public enemy: a lot mc's cite chuck d as an influence, but not

> regarding public enemy: a lot mc's cite chuck d as an influence, but not > in the way you might expect. most attribute to him the green light to > speak on politics, say their opinions straight out, etc. i think in the > case of public enemy, they are so monolithic that it will take years > before we see more of their style distilled and copied...but the influence > is there. the bomb squad, on the other hand, influenced production styles > tremendously, in and out of hip hop. (honestly, take "tomorrow never > knows" by the beatles, give it bomb squad production, and you have the > chemical brothers.)

And the Chemicals don't deny that.

Re: (idm)long-ass Hip-hop history