IDM Mailing Archive

this might interest some people: Thursday April 15 1999 Banddb NEWS MP3 Gets Warped This week Banddb spoke exclusively to UK independent label Warp Records about their plans for MP3. http://www.banddb.com/

Ugh. I was hoping this guy from warp to be cool. He's really not. He attacks bootleg mp3s viciously. Cripes, it's like tape trading only easier. I've had several people tell me they've become tricky addicts like myself after downloading mp3s from my sight. I used that aphex twin mp3 site extensively to get shit that i wouldn't have otherwise...The two missing SAWII tracks, Pac-Man, Remixes, Odd singles. All stuff that i would have never bought because i usually can't justify spending that much money on small things. I still bought all his US releases. Now, if i see this stuff for sale somewhere, i'm more likely to buy it cos i know how good it is. I never passed on a purchase because i could just d/l the mp3. No one was hurt and i got so much closer to being an RDJ completist. That's my story and i'm sticking to it. A quote from Greg Eden (from warp): "It should be made clear that downloading pirated MP3s is theft. These people wouldn't walk into someone's house and steal a television, or walk into a record shop and steal a few CDs but they don't bat an eyelid when it comes to downloading illegal MP3s, which in the end amounts to the same thing."

quoted 4 lines MP3 Gets Warped

>MP3 Gets Warped >This week Banddb spoke exclusively to UK independent label Warp Records >about their plans for MP3. >http://www.banddb.com/

_________________________________ Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu Augsburg College / Minneapolis / MN / USA http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/ The world's most complete Pork Recordings/Fila Brazillia site: http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ "The only disease we need in our blood is love" TRICKY

quoted 2 lines This week Banddb spoke exclusively to UK independent label Warp Records

> This week Banddb spoke exclusively to UK independent label Warp Records > about their plans for MP3.

what plans? i didn't see anything in that article saying what warp are going to do /with/ mp3, just what they (think they're) going to /about/ it. that's to say, trying to make people feel guilty for listening to their music without going to a shop and buying it. which is the only strategy at their disposal that might have a chance of working. the comparison between illegal mp3 files and burglary, well, i dismiss this out of hand. this has been said ever since the first software pirates were in action. and plenty of people use legal purchased software even though they could have free copies from the internet. and the software companies still make a bit of money, you know. data-theft is very different to property theft. the timebomb was set ticking the day that consumer digital audio was invented, simple as that. there's no turning back, they fucked themselves by doing that, and then they try to blame us and prey on our consciences! if the situation worries them now, what will it be in 10 years time, when bandwidth increases another 20-fold, or another 100-fold, or probably more. if you want it, you'll be able to get it. there's no way the record companies can keep it in check, the way things are going now. the only way out of it is to restrict public access to the means of digital distribution (internet, DAT, CDR, MD). that may seem ridiculous, but once the other, bigger branches of the media industry start to see their property made freely available (thanks to increasing bandwidth), and more pressure is put on our governments to act, then this scenario will be much more plausible. all the current formats would have to go - CD, DVD etc because the means of manufacture are already too firmly rooted amongst the public, and then it would take years before all the existing equipment to make (and play) these formats breaks down of old age. and the idea of all media converging towards one source, the computer multi-media entertainment hub? didn't they realise they would be slitting their own throats with this? and while all this goes on, hey presto, we'll have to re-purchase our music collections again! if the digital age gives us nothing else, it has given us freedom of information. not that warp have much to worry about, they'll be long gone before it gets /really/ bad. they should think about selling up - i hear murdoch has a few spare quid lying around since he failed to swallow united.. rant over now.. <waves>

quoted 2 lines the comparison between illegal mp3 files and burglary, well, i dismiss this

>the comparison between illegal mp3 files and burglary, well, i dismiss this >out of hand. this has been said ever since the first software pirates were

indeed, the difference is that with burglary the person doesn't have a tv after it's stolen, where with mp3/"music theft" it's an economic deprivation. john lennon said "music is everybody's, it's only the publishers who think otherwise."

quoted 2 lines if you want it, you'll be able to get it. there's no way the record

>if you want it, you'll be able to get it. there's no way the record >companies can keep it in check, the way things are going now.

the way things are going now is that the record industry is trying to come up with a way to proprietize digital/streaming media, so that the only way to listen to bitwise music will be to use a program that controls whether you are able to save a copy on your hard drive or pay for each listen. this will most likely be presented as an improvement over mp3 (expect to hear the scare-word "lossy" a lot) where many people will accept the trade-off of industry-sourced sound files over making/downloading/filing their own. this is inevitable as the industry strives to make streaming media a revenue source (same results with fewer people than a radio station means higher margins). of course, while people can keep using mp3 to whatever ends they put it, expect there to be extreme pressure/advertising/technical articles to "upgrade." eric onnow: jim o'rourke : eureka (touch and go)

quoted 2 lines the way things are going now is that the record industry is

> the way things are going now is that the record industry is > trying to come up with a way to proprietize digital/streaming media, so

that

quoted 1 line the only way to listen to bitwise music will be to use a program that

> the only way to listen to bitwise music will be to use a program that

controls whether

quoted 1 line you are able to save a copy on your hard drive or pay for each listen.

> you are able to save a copy on your hard drive or pay for each listen.

this has already failed. there are many soundcards (such as the soundblaster live) that allow you to digitally re-route the output of your wave player back into the card (without loss of quality) so you can record /anything/ as a wave file. plus programs like virtual audio cable, etc etc.. pay per listen will never happen. <waves>

Little Ms. Trinitron makes a good point about pirated software, but leaves out an important part of the equation. I will elaborate. A lot of software companies (Microsoft, Adobe, and other major victims of piracy especially) add piracy into the cost of their products. What that means is this: For every copy they actually sell, they predict that some X number of copies will go unsold because that copy becomes pirated or otherwise used without proper registration by lots of different people. I know that Adobe usually predicts 10-12 pirate users for every copy sold- this is the way they protect themselves. So every time you actually BUY an Adobe product (god forbid!), you are paying ten times what the normal price would be without piracy. Carry this over into the music industry with MP3's and what you may very well get is a marked increase in album prices; for every song you sell, you factor in X number of MP3/CDR pirate bastards who copy the shit for themselves for free instead of buying it. I personally don't want to see CD prices go any higher than they are now, and I live in the USA where they're comparatively cheap. So whether or not software piracy, CD burning and MP3 trading are ethically permissible, the honest end user who pays good money for his shit is going to get screwed most likely; the people who produce and sell music have price control in the end and that's where we're going to get hurt. So enjoy the free music distribution system while it lasts. Before too long we may all be paying ridiculous prices for CDs because of it. Tom

quoted 2 lines A lot of software companies (Microsoft, Adobe, and other major victims of

> A lot of software companies (Microsoft, Adobe, and other major victims of > piracy especially)add piracy into the cost of their products. What that

means is

quoted 1 line this: For every copy they actually sell, they predict that some X number

> this: For every copy they actually sell, they predict that some X number

of copies will go

quoted 2 lines unsold because that copy becomes pirated or otherwise used without proper

> unsold because that copy becomes pirated or otherwise used without proper > registration by lots of different people.I know that Adobe usually

predicts

quoted 3 lines 10-12 pirate users for every copy sold- this is the way they protect

> 10-12 pirate users for every copy sold- this is the way they protect > themselves. So every time you actually BUY an Adobe product (god > forbid!), you are paying ten times what the normal price would be without

piracy. This may be true to a certain extent, but let's look at Adobe products as an example...most people who pirate Adobe products would have never bought them in the first place. It's a fallacy to assume that all, or even the majority of pirated copies of something would have been purchased. First of all, most of the hardcore software pirates collect hundreds of programs just to collect them, never use most of them them, and never would have bought them. Also, the vast majority of people who pirate Photoshop are non-professional users or college students who would have never purchased the product. Adobe products are by and large made for professional use. The average person has no need for a program like Photoshop. That's why it will always be aimed at the professional user. Adobe products are also very expensive....they are expensive not primarily because they are being pirated, but because they are professional products, and professional users who make thousands of dollars using Adobe products in their professional work are willing to pay $500 for a copy. If professionals were only willing to pay $200 for Photoshop that's what it would sell for, regardless of how many people pirated it. Case in point...many other software titles that are pirated just as much, or more so than Adobe products, don't cost $500. Adobe will charge as much for the product as they think the market will bear because even if they charged $50 instead of $500, the program would be pirated anyway. The type of product, along with supply and demand, has more to do with the cost of a product than piracy. I'm not saying piracy doesn't raise prices to a certain degree, but it doesn't have the "10 times" impact you say it does. I don't condone piracy btw. I think people should compensate software makers when they use their products.

quoted 3 lines Carry this over into the music industry with MP3's and what you

> Carry this over into the music industry with MP3's and what you > may very well get is a marked increase in album prices; for every song you > sell, you factor in X number of MP3/CDR pirate bastards who copy the shit

for

quoted 1 line themselves for free instead of buying it. I personally don't want to see

> themselves for free instead of buying it. I personally don't want to see

CD prices go any

quoted 1 line higher than they are now, and I live in the USA where they're

> higher than they are now, and I live in the USA where they're

comparatively cheap. Many people use MP3's to preview music before purchase, to listen to music they would never buy anyway, or to obtain music they are not able to buy. Just for the record, I have never downloaded an MP3 instead of buying a CD. I have downloaded MP3's to check something out to see if I like it, or to hear something I would never be able to buy (such as an out-of-print recording). Neither one of these uses reduces anyone's income..in fact it probably raises income because I am more likely to purchase something after previewing it as an MP3...if I like the music, and the music is available for purchase, I ALWAYS buy the retail CD. Don't assume everyone who uses MP3's is a pirating bastard. That's very short-sighted. Most people would rather have a CD in their hands, with lyrics, artwork etc. than an MP3...myself included. I also think that some people have turned to MP3's because of the high prices being charged for new CD's. I think that if Cd prices go up too much more, that MP3 piracy will also rise. The best way for record labels to combat MP3s is to LOWER prices, not raise prices. The lower the price of a retail CD, the more likely people will buy the CD instead of downloading an MP3.

quoted 1 line So enjoy the free music distribution system while it lasts.

> So enjoy the free music distribution system while it lasts.

What makes you think free MP3's will go away? It is going to be impossible to eliminate the distribution of free MP3s. There are simply not enough resources to stop the millions of people who trade them and distribute them.

On 15 Apr 99, . wrote re: RE: (idm) warp/mp3 and burglarizin':

quoted 5 lines I think that if Cd prices go up too much more, that MP3 piracy will

> I think that if Cd prices go up too much more, that MP3 piracy will > also rise. The best way for record labels to combat MP3s is to > LOWER prices, not raise prices. The lower the price of a retail CD, > the more likely people will buy the CD instead of downloading an > MP3.

Hear, hear. The fact is, the technology is here. Manufacturing CD's must be dirt-cheap, judging by the amounts of 'free' CD's stuck onto the covers of magazines etc. The marketing boys are just VERY greedily creaming off cash at each crank of the wheel. I'm not promoting flagrant piracy, nor do I propagate making money off illegal copies, but personally I see no major harm in exchanging CD-R's within a circle of friends, of whom somebody somewhere has to buy the original from which to make the copy in the first place. I have an arrangement with a friend whose taste overlaps with mine, and in order to minimise doubling up on what we buy, we discuss new releases and he'll buy this, I'll buy that - then we swop and exchange. We are still BUYING new products each month. I am too much of an anti-luddite and am too cynical to uphold a strict sense of ethics in this rather unethical business that makes major money from music obsessives. I *