IDM Mailing Archive

I would tend to come down on the side of Warp when it comes to shutting down MP3 sites. It pisses me off in general when people want something for nothing. Why do people think it's so cool to get over on someone? I guess the attitude is that if you aren't actively screwing someone, you must somehow be getting screwed yourself. But it isn't a zero sum game -- when the artists win, the audience wins; when the artists lose, the audience loses. My philosophy can be called 'cooperativism.' If you want something, expect to give something in return. I don't see what an mp3-geek gives to the artists and record company in return for the music they're getting -- unless they actually pay for the music. If they don't pay, and get a charge out of not paying, then they're just as pathetic as the jerks who get excited about getting surplus government cheese when they don't need it. What MP3 technology points to is a system where the physical artifact of the CD is no longer an essential part of the transaction. But if the transaction is one way -- people get music, but never put money back in the system to support the artists and the companies who package the music -- then there is little economic incentive for people to start labels or make music. The artists lose and the audience loses. What it boils down to is this: if the producers don't get paid, they have to support themselves with day jobs. I work a day job to pay the bills and produce music when I can steal the time from my family. I can tell you uniquivocably that I'm not making music of the quality and quantity that I could make if I could pursue it full time. This is not to say that there aren't different economic models that are viable for producers to make a living. Conceivably, you could give away MP3s and make your living off of personal appearances, merchandising, and selling CDs for offline consumption. This is the model that Chuck D and Public Enemy are pursuing. But it will be a while before this model can really be viable -- an artist would need to have a fan base around the world that would come out to a show a couple times a year faithfully, something that is very difficult to generate these days without the revenues from CD sales. I don't have much sympathy for the Sonys and Warners of the world -- they make a huge fortune by delivering overpriced products to the public, while paying artists as little money as possible to produce it. The audience and artists should be working towards cutting those leeches out of the loop. But when the audience comes to expect something for nothing, then they're making it harder than it already is for the artists to make a decent living. Ideally, an artist and his or her audience are engaging in a dialog that is both a human communication and an economic transaction. kent williams -- kent@avalon.net ICQ:33001909

At 10:13 AM 4/16/99 -0500, ChairCrusher wrote:

quoted 2 lines I would tend to come down on the side of Warp when it comes

>I would tend to come down on the side of Warp when it comes >to shutting down MP3 sites.

Escept you failed to mention the regular excuses of "They're out-ot-print!" _________________________________ Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu Augsburg College / Minneapolis / MN / USA http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/ The world's most complete Pork Recordings/Fila Brazillia site: http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ "The only disease we need in our blood is love" TRICKY

On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Moonlight wrote:

quoted 5 lines At 10:13 AM 4/16/99 -0500, ChairCrusher wrote:

> At 10:13 AM 4/16/99 -0500, ChairCrusher wrote: > >I would tend to come down on the side of Warp when it comes > >to shutting down MP3 sites. > > Escept you failed to mention the regular excuses of "They're out-ot-print!"

What chance is there for re-issues if it already happened defacto and illegally on the internet?

quoted 2 lines Escept you failed to mention the regular excuses of "They're out-ot-print!"

>> Escept you failed to mention the regular excuses of "They're out-ot-print!" >What chance is there for re-issues if it already happened defacto and

illegally

quoted 1 line on the internet?

>on the internet?

Well, It happened with Caustic Window Joyrexes (the joyrex album came out after the joyrex EPs were available on the MP3 site), AFX AB 3.1,and AFX AB 4 (I believe). And if AB 2 were rereleased, I'd be all over that, too. They should really rerelease Ventolin, too. Portishead's "PNYC" and the Counting Crows double-live album were both in response to haeavy bootlegging of those specific shows, although they weren't widely available on mp3, they were probably just several months from that. _________________________________ Adam Roesch / roesch@augsburg.edu Augsburg College / Minneapolis / MN / USA http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/ The world's most complete Pork Recordings/Fila Brazillia site: http://dogbert.augsburg.edu/~roesch/pork/ "The only disease we need in our blood is love" TRICKY

quoted 5 lines Escept you failed to mention the regular excuses of "They're out-ot-print!"

> >> Escept you failed to mention the regular excuses of "They're out-ot-print!" > >What chance is there for re-issues if it already happened defacto and > illegally > >on the internet? >

Makes me want to buy the real thing when it gets re-release because I already know how good it is. Gladly buy the re-release to replace my crappy sounding mp3s... Hess

quoted 5 lines Portishead's "PNYC" and the Counting Crows double-live album were both in

> > Portishead's "PNYC" and the Counting Crows double-live album were both in > response to haeavy bootlegging of those specific shows, although they > weren't widely available on mp3, they were probably just several months > from that.

As far as I know, the Portishead show was a one-off specifically set up to be recorded for future release. That's what my friend who was there said. I'd assume that regarding the bootlegging of live shows, it helps those groups whose shows are based on "jamming", like Phish, or maybe even Autchre, by helping to build a dedicated live fanbase. Of course, those groups have to tour constantly to fulfill their end of the bargain. Probably, groups like Portishead are hurt by bottlegging, b/c they're sets are similar every time--a dedicated groups will attend multiple show, but the appeal isn't there for the casual fan. If their older shows were bootlegged, it probably indicated to their label that an interest existed, but it also cut into sales of the live release.

ChairCrusher wrote:

quoted 26 lines I would tend to come down on the side of Warp when it comes

> I would tend to come down on the side of Warp when it comes > to shutting down MP3 sites. It pisses me off in general when > people want something for nothing. Why do people think it's > so cool to get over on someone? I guess the attitude is that > if you aren't actively screwing someone, you must somehow be > getting screwed yourself. But it isn't a zero sum game -- > when the artists win, the audience wins; when the artists > lose, the audience loses. > > My philosophy can be called 'cooperativism.' If you > want something, expect to give something in return. I don't > see what an mp3-geek gives to the artists and record company > in return for the music they're getting -- unless they actually > pay for the music. If they don't pay, and get a charge out > of not paying, then they're just as pathetic as the jerks > who get excited about getting surplus government cheese > when they don't need it. > > What MP3 technology points to is a system where the physical > artifact of the CD is no longer an essential part of the transaction. > But if the transaction is one way -- people get music, but never > put money back in the system to support the artists and the companies > who package the music -- then there is little economic incentive > for people to start labels or make music. The artists lose and the > audience loses. >

[edit]

quoted 8 lines What it boils down to is this: if the producers don't get paid,

> > What it boils down to is this: if the producers don't get paid, > they have to support themselves with day jobs. I > work a day job to pay the bills and produce music when I can > steal the time from my family. I can tell you uniquivocably that > I'm not making music of the quality and quantity that I could > make if I could pursue it full time. >

i have found the opposite...i dont like working, but when i was just writing music all the time, i could go 3 months without doing anything, because it just frustrated me, now im working, i do more music than i ever did, and ive got a lot of anti-work energy that i can put into my music..... if people want to put mp3's of my record on the net...fine...i think it should be something that the artist chooses.... but..with money grabbing publishers and record companies in control , they arent likely to allow any of their acts to appear for free on the net.... the point has been made a hundred times, but if i get an mp3 of something and i like it.. i buy it...mp3's sound pretty bad compared to original recordings...(and im a vinyl fan also ;)...you cant beat a good 12 inch... peace martin

quoted 1 line Escept you failed to mention the regular excuses of "They're

> > Escept you failed to mention the regular excuses of "They're

out-ot-print!"

quoted 2 lines What chance is there for re-issues if it already happened defacto and

> > What chance is there for re-issues if it already happened defacto and

illegally

quoted 1 line on the internet?

> on the internet?

Although admittedly it's not the same thing, and there are quality issues, those Warp peel sessions did get released, despite massive bootlegging and mp3ing. Heavy bootlegging illustrates a heavy demand, and record companies are angry because the normal rules associated with supply & demand do not apply. People will generally not pay huge sums of money for ultra-limited releases (Mask, Skam) when they can get near-perfect copies for free. Not many of us are willing to pay such outrageous prices (here I'm referring to the second hand market mostly,) but if we had a chance to buy the record at normal prices, which of us wouldn't? MP3s can be a better promotional tool than radio, provided the record company uses the technology wisely. How many of us bought the Nanofunk EP or the Saundart CD based on the RA or MP3 clips they heard? Xaos 80 97 116 114 105 99 107 32 77 99 71 105 110 110

On 16 Apr 1999, ChairCrusher wrote:

quoted 7 lines What MP3 technology points to is a system where the physical

> What MP3 technology points to is a system where the physical > artifact of the CD is no longer an essential part of the transaction. > But if the transaction is one way -- people get music, but never > put money back in the system to support the artists and the companies > who package the music -- then there is little economic incentive > for people to start labels or make music. The artists lose and the > audience loses.

Correction, the artists who need an "economic incentive" to start labels or make music will "lose." Take from that what you will. Nick PS try and find a full-length CD from skimo that's retailed for less than mine. ($11.75, fyi) :) +---------- -- - - - - |UnderscoreEntertainment www.gl.umbc.edu/~nworth1 iDM Bawlmer Stylee |UnderscoreMailingList www.egroups.com/list/underscore Chitty Chat |IDidATripleTakeToday mp3.musichall.cz/IT3 Impulse Tracker ver.3! |