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Re: (idm) reynolds, sinead, ranting, yippee

5 messages · 5 participants · spans 2 days · search this subject
◇ merged from 3 subjects: (idm) mr scruff, reynolds rant · (idm) re: reynolds rant (long and rambly) · (idm) reynolds, sinead, ranting, yippee
1999-04-08 22:17Phillips, Brock (idm) mr scruff, reynolds rant
└─ 1999-04-10 19:59martin burbridge (idm) RE: reynolds rant (long and rambly)
1999-04-08 22:41Sharon Maher Re: (idm) mr scruff, reynolds rant
1999-04-08 23:43Tom Millar Re: (idm) reynolds, sinead, ranting, yippee
1999-04-09 15:40david turgeon Re: (idm) reynolds, sinead, ranting, yippee
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1999-04-08 22:17Phillips, BrockTo whoever was posting yesterday about the Mr. Scruff LP: I'd encourage you to seek out th
From:
Phillips, Brock
To:
Date:
08 Apr 1999 15:17:11 -0700
Subject:
(idm) mr scruff, reynolds rant
permalink · <042AB370D2AE7DE7*/c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=disney/o=CCBUR1/s=Phillips/g=Brock/@MHS>
To whoever was posting yesterday about the Mr. Scruff LP: I'd encourage you to seek out the s/t Mr. Scruff 2x12" on Pleasure Records - it's in a similar vein as the Fish single on Ninja, kinda sample-goofy trip hop that's smooth and brings a smile to your face. There's a great track with samples about a whale on there (sounds stupid, I know but...) and "Chicken In a Box", which is worth the price of the rekkid alone. Ethiopian nose flute intro which breaks down into a feverish latin percussion workout and vocodered voices at the end. Prolly another one that would fit into the K&D recommendations camp as well. Worth scoring. As far as Simon Reynolds' tirade, I can't say that I disagree entirely. Maybe it's because I've read his book "Generation Ecstasy" (also worth scoring) and know his whole argument. If you read that one you'll understand better where he's coming from - he's more interested in music as an agent of social change and personal transformation, and idm seems a bit too self-indulgent and deliberately elitist to work in that direction. Compare someone who makes "difficult/avant garde" music to a kid who goes out to raves every weekend and eats loads of drugs - Reynolds would argue that the kid is actually doing more to push the envelope, challenge the status quo, etc. while the "avant-garde" musician is actually just working within the system for primarily self-indulgent reasons. As long as the kid is conscious of his actions (which most aren't), I can't say he's wrong on this one. And if your goal isn't to buck the system, then you won't buy into this anyway. It all depends on where you're coming from and what end result you desire. I'm doing a horrible job of explaining it, maybe someone else who's read the book and is a bit more eloquent can step in. And this is prolly the wrong audience to make the argument to anyway. Please don't torch my ass too bad on this one...Brock
1999-04-10 19:59martin burbridge> he's coming from - he's more interested in music as an agent of > social change > and pe
From:
martin burbridge
To:
Phillips, Brock ,
Date:
Sat, 10 Apr 1999 15:59:46 -0400
Subject:
(idm) RE: reynolds rant (long and rambly)
Reply to:
(idm) mr scruff, reynolds rant
permalink · <002401be838c$aed46dd0$02c8a8c0@everton>
quoted 14 lines he's coming from - he's more interested in music as an agent of> he's coming from - he's more interested in music as an agent of > social change > and personal transformation, and idm seems a bit too self-indulgent and > deliberately elitist to work in that direction. Compare someone > who makes > "difficult/avant garde" music to a kid who goes out to raves > every weekend and > eats loads of drugs - Reynolds would argue that the kid is > actually doing more > to push the envelope, challenge the status quo, etc. while the > "avant-garde" > musician is actually just working within the system for primarily > self-indulgent > reasons.
i must say i kind of agree w/ brocks reasoning on some the points reynolds makes, but from the original article there's a bitter edge that is reminiscent of the gripes you get on this list from time to time, from those who like melodic idm, and somehow treat the "avant garde" (and i'm using this loosely) as a threat. and i wonder why? why do some people seem to feel so threatened by the fact that others can buy v/vm or lucky kitchen or diskono etc or even worse just download mp3's of like minded efforts. from reynolds perspective, if i was cynical, i can see why someone who makes a living as a chronicler of 'underground' electronic music in the more mainstream media would be upset by this. it must be difficult getting someone to publish a book based on something that only 500 people may have even heard let alone like. the argument that for music to be worthwhile, that it must impact society as a whole, i've always felt to be completely facile. in this respect music such as "the macarena", the spice girls and garth brooks towers above anything that gets mentioned on this list and will always do so. this is the most music industry and media friendly end of the spectrum, because of the mass market it serves. this mass market can also accommadate a quite reasonable amount of marketable rebellion, from james dean and elvis to the warning sticker emblazoned rap records that sell so much w/ their formularized 'hood tales. they know how to handle idm, use it in commercials and snippets, allow the odd (in both senses) performer get on mtv, but thats as far as it'll go until someone like rdj has some real hits. acid house may have been a widespread social phenomena, but when the changes it brough are measured in aphex vids on mtv and number one singles for underworld i think, so what? so for now, i'll keep searching for the awkward oddball stuff that has existed before idm, and will still be there when no one listens to idm anymore ('cept those in "idm's not dead" t-shirts), and if that upsets people like mr reynolds, sony, mtv, the new york times ... then, well we must be doing something right. -martin "have you ever noticed that people who don't believe in evolution have dirty knuckles?" - bill hicks
1999-04-08 22:41Sharon MaherForgive my comments here, if they sound harsh. I recognize the author of the post i'm resp
From:
Sharon Maher
To:
Date:
Thu, 08 Apr 1999 15:41:13 -0700
Subject:
Re: (idm) mr scruff, reynolds rant
permalink · <370D3089.7CD7E7CC@looksmart.net>
Forgive my comments here, if they sound harsh. I recognize the author of the post i'm responding to was only voicing his memory of the opinions of Simon Reynolds. Not having read his book i can't really judge his attitudes. However i still felt very motivated to speak my opinions: I disagree totally. I understand the rationale - that armchair avante-garde chinstroking elitism - ie you stay at home waxing poetic about difficult music - is less revolutionary than challenging the status quo via partying and drug use. First off, i'd argue that partying and druge use does not challenge the status qou. That's called teenage rebellion, and its had its cultural and musical movements for the last century. Read a book on the 60s if you don't belive me. However, furthermore, Reynolds' is suggesting that IDM is primarily an acedemic or avant garde medium, which it isn't. If you ever take college courses on electronic music in this country, you'll see that there is a large gap between the so-called avante garde and the vernacular. In my experience, a band like Einstruzende Neubauten receives no attention for their groundbreaking efforts where as artists like Philip Glass and Steve Reich are revered. And that's because the movement of a band like Neubauten was not rotted in academia and thus has to be dismissed. As for the present day, i see an artistic movement that directly counters the highly-commerical record industry very revolutionary. If your aim is to release challenging music and open minds as opposed to making money, isn't that challenging the status quo? I would argue that subverting the record industry is far more revolutionary than being a raver. However, my suspicions are that Reynolds doesn't see it this way because subverting the record industry would mean disinfranchising the place he's built for himself so that he can make a living off of very smugly assessing the relevancy of bands and music movements. Such as the piece of shit that he wrote in the first place.
quoted 12 lines As far as Simon Reynolds' tirade, I can't say that I disagree entirely. Maybe> As far as Simon Reynolds' tirade, I can't say that I disagree entirely. Maybe > it's because I've read his book "Generation Ecstasy" (also worth scoring) and > know his whole argument. If you read that one you'll understand better where > he's coming from - he's more interested in music as an agent of social change > and personal transformation, and idm seems a bit too self-indulgent and > deliberately elitist to work in that direction. Compare someone who makes > "difficult/avant garde" music to a kid who goes out to raves every weekend and > eats loads of drugs - Reynolds would argue that the kid is actually doing more > to push the envelope, challenge the status quo, etc. while the "avant-garde" > musician is actually just working within the system for primarily self-indulgent > reasons. As long as the kid is conscious of his actions (which most aren't), I > can't say he's wrong on this one.
1999-04-08 23:43Tom MillarI kind of agree with some things that Hulk and Mr. Reynolds have to say... Hulk first, the
From:
Tom Millar
To:
Date:
Thu, 08 Apr 1999 19:43:12 -0400
Subject:
Re: (idm) reynolds, sinead, ranting, yippee
permalink · <370D3F02.DBE10112@unix.cas.utk.edu>
I kind of agree with some things that Hulk and Mr. Reynolds have to say... Hulk first, then I'll lead into Reynolds. I've never been the slightest bit impressed by artists taking a political stance of any sort, on anything. How hard is it to embrace a cause celebré when the business you're in really has little or nothing to do with the political realm, outside of the most superficial public realms already occupied by drivel like opinion polls and mass-market "news" outlets? Whenever an artist or artists try to release a single to emphasize some kind of political or social opinion they have, it tends to tick me off, because they are essentially appropriating those people's suffering for their own self-promotion. This may not be their intent, they may really want to help somehow, but they already have wads of dough as it is they can donate themselves and they can express their personal opinions somewhere other than on a hit record. It's a ridiculous practice that really doesn't raise awareness worth a shit (notice how deforestation has slowed since the release of "timber"? ha) and basically trivializes whatever injustice or suffering they're trying to bring attention to. It's not the thing to do. I agree that Thomas Dolby is not really any great shakes. It's truly unfortunate that Coldcut, who have given us a wonderful record label as well as several excellent tunes of their own, have become aligned with the same kind of scene Dolby is part of now. The what-can-we-do-next-to-stay-avant-garde shoegazing poopoo multimedia production crowd has yet to make anything even vaguely interesting to me, and they spend way too much time expounding on the virtue of their own latest projects to really advance the art. Coldcut, and Dolby as well, should go back to making serious music, IMO, and stop fooling around with Internet Multimedia Virtual Video Shared Experience zippy gizmos. The bedroom Cubase-twiddler Reynolds speaks of has this problem, too. You can amass a personal discography of 250 so-called "ground-breaking" single-sided 7" EPs and mini-CDR releases packaged in used toilet paper, but damned if that's anything but self-indulgent. Art, especially art as abstractly expressive as instumental music, should be something everybody is allowed to enjoy, not just the 500 people who manage to track down a copy of your melodic/noisy noodlings. The lo-fi nerd movement, and IDM to a certain extent, both suffer from severely elitist tendencies. Witness the fleeing nerd herd as they try to escape groovy b-lines and any rhythm that's funky enough to do anything more than (maybe) nod your head to... The thing is, making music only for the enjoyment of yourself and hip friends is fine, but don't act like you're hot shit for doing it, because just about everybody does. And true "ground-breaking" hasn't happened for a while. Cristian Vogel's latest, at least, makes a return to the throbbing beats we used to love so much. I'm glad I can still appreciate it. And that Komeda single remixed by the Dot posse is great, too. Tom
1999-04-09 15:40david turgeon> The bedroom Cubase-twiddler Reynolds speaks of has this problem, too. You can > amass a
From:
david turgeon
To:
Cc:
Date:
Fri, 09 Apr 1999 11:40:11 -0400
Subject:
Re: (idm) reynolds, sinead, ranting, yippee
permalink · <370E1F54.5C24B407@mnemonic.net>
quoted 7 lines The bedroom Cubase-twiddler Reynolds speaks of has this problem, too. You can> The bedroom Cubase-twiddler Reynolds speaks of has this problem, too. You can > amass a personal discography of 250 so-called "ground-breaking" single-sided > 7" EPs and mini-CDR releases packaged in used toilet paper, but damned if > that's anything but self-indulgent. Art, especially art as abstractly > expressive as instumental music, should be something everybody is allowed to > enjoy, not just the 500 people who manage to track down a copy of your > melodic/noisy noodlings. The lo-fi nerd movement, and IDM to a certain extent,
granted, the movement you're talking about (which we're all part of, more or less) _can_ end up elitist & self-indulgent, but so long as a certain group doesn't keep the privilege of making their own music for themselves, music remains "free" in the sense that everybody can publish it for a reasonable cost (reasonable as in, at least in theory, you only need a computer & an internet connection to be a part of this). matter of fact, this has been happening for a long time & not just by idmsters or so-called lo-fi nerds, in the tracker scene for example, which has existed for YEARS & has yet to be considered "legitimate" by most. the whole reynolds argument stems from the assumption that music has to exist on a certain physical media which has to be sold at a certain price, i.e. the music business as we know it. however he seems to forget that this system allowed for quite a lot of crap to be released in the past decades while many innovative (or potentially innovative) artists are still dreaming of putting out music to the public. if pop/club/rock/whatever music is so popular, it's partly because it's so easily available to the "sweaty masses". it's _also_ as true the other way around: "the people buy it therefore it must be what they want". but still, if they don't know about it, they won't bother. another argument i've seen on this list is that idm is elitist because it's reserved to intellectuals. that may be true in some cases, but in a sense, what we want is to "educate" the masses, right? to share our knowledge, what we've figured out in music, no? we may fear that things are going to be a hell lot less "groundbreaking" with this scheme--but couldn't the same be said of say, the history of physics? as knowledge is available to the masses, sure thing the scientists will never be as "groundbreaking" as newton, or einstein, or say hawking. the ground that's left to break at once is likely to be smaller & smaller with every discovery that's made, extremely small when compared to the original theory of gravitation, which basically laid down the premises of physics _as a whole_. however, we've never been so precise in our knowledge of physics, & we keep finding out new gaps in our theory which we have to fill. what i'm saying is that we seem to be headed towards a scheme where composers, rather than trying to reinvent the world, will instead 1) share their discoveries, even if they come from different scenes (idm, detroit, free jazz, trackers, avant garde, whoever) & 2) look for new ways to interpret what they have instead of complaining that "everything's been done before". sure thing it's an intellectual process which requires time (& money) & consumes thought. though you'll notice that all major "breakthroughs" in pop music (björk, beck, etc.) weren't at all spontaneous but rather stemmed from preexisting underground, "intellectual" music forms. so don't shoot intellectualism in music. if some guy has enough money to blow on one-sided 7"s, fine for him. but that's not what _defines_ the process of making this kind of music. -- david turgeon at http://www.notype.com