IDM Mailing Archive

1999-04-08 22:17Phillips, BrockTo whoever was posting yesterday about the Mr. Scruff LP: I'd encourage you to seek out th

From:: Phillips, Brock <Brock.Phillips@mammoth.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: 08 Apr 1999 15:17:11 -0700
Subject:: (idm) mr scruff, reynolds rant

To whoever was posting yesterday about the Mr. Scruff LP: I'd encourage you to seek out the s/t Mr. Scruff 2x12" on Pleasure Records - it's in a similar vein as the Fish single on Ninja, kinda sample-goofy trip hop that's smooth and brings a smile to your face. There's a great track with samples about a whale on there (sounds stupid, I know but...) and "Chicken In a Box", which is worth the price of the rekkid alone. Ethiopian nose flute intro which breaks down into a feverish latin percussion workout and vocodered voices at the end. Prolly another one that would fit into the K&D recommendations camp as well. Worth scoring. As far as Simon Reynolds' tirade, I can't say that I disagree entirely. Maybe it's because I've read his book "Generation Ecstasy" (also worth scoring) and know his whole argument. If you read that one you'll understand better where he's coming from - he's more interested in music as an agent of social change and personal transformation, and idm seems a bit too self-indulgent and deliberately elitist to work in that direction. Compare someone who makes "difficult/avant garde" music to a kid who goes out to raves every weekend and eats loads of drugs - Reynolds would argue that the kid is actually doing more to push the envelope, challenge the status quo, etc. while the "avant-garde" musician is actually just working within the system for primarily self-indulgent reasons. As long as the kid is conscious of his actions (which most aren't), I can't say he's wrong on this one. And if your goal isn't to buck the system, then you won't buy into this anyway. It all depends on where you're coming from and what end result you desire. I'm doing a horrible job of explaining it, maybe someone else who's read the book and is a bit more eloquent can step in. And this is prolly the wrong audience to make the argument to anyway. Please don't torch my ass too bad on this one...Brock

1999-04-10 19:59martin burbridge> he's coming from - he's more interested in music as an agent of > social change > and pe

From:: martin burbridge <mbubs@ibm.net>
To:: Phillips, Brock <Brock.Phillips@mammoth.com>, <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 15:59:46 -0400
Subject:: (idm) RE: reynolds rant (long and rambly)
Reply to:: (idm) mr scruff, reynolds rant

quoted 14 lines he's coming from - he's more interested in music as an agent of

> he's coming from - he's more interested in music as an agent of > social change > and personal transformation, and idm seems a bit too self-indulgent and > deliberately elitist to work in that direction. Compare someone > who makes > "difficult/avant garde" music to a kid who goes out to raves > every weekend and > eats loads of drugs - Reynolds would argue that the kid is > actually doing more > to push the envelope, challenge the status quo, etc. while the > "avant-garde" > musician is actually just working within the system for primarily > self-indulgent > reasons.

i must say i kind of agree w/ brocks reasoning on some the points reynolds makes, but from the original article there's a bitter edge that is reminiscent of the gripes you get on this list from time to time, from those who like melodic idm, and somehow treat the "avant garde" (and i'm using this loosely) as a threat. and i wonder why? why do some people seem to feel so threatened by the fact that others can buy v/vm or lucky kitchen or diskono etc or even worse just download mp3's of like minded efforts. from reynolds perspective, if i was cynical, i can see why someone who makes a living as a chronicler of 'underground' electronic music in the more mainstream media would be upset by this. it must be difficult getting someone to publish a book based on something that only 500 people may have even heard let alone like. the argument that for music to be worthwhile, that it must impact society as a whole, i've always felt to be completely facile. in this respect music such as "the macarena", the spice girls and garth brooks towers above anything that gets mentioned on this list and will always do so. this is the most music industry and media friendly end of the spectrum, because of the mass market it serves. this mass market can also accommadate a quite reasonable amount of marketable rebellion, from james dean and elvis to the warning sticker emblazoned rap records that sell so much w/ their formularized 'hood tales. they know how to handle idm, use it in commercials and snippets, allow the odd (in both senses) performer get on mtv, but thats as far as it'll go until someone like rdj has some real hits. acid house may have been a widespread social phenomena, but when the changes it brough are measured in aphex vids on mtv and number one singles for underworld i think, so what? so for now, i'll keep searching for the awkward oddball stuff that has existed before idm, and will still be there when no one listens to idm anymore ('cept those in "idm's not dead" t-shirts), and if that upsets people like mr reynolds, sony, mtv, the new york times ... then, well we must be doing something right. -martin "have you ever noticed that people who don't believe in evolution have dirty knuckles?" - bill hicks

1999-04-08 22:41Sharon MaherForgive my comments here, if they sound harsh. I recognize the author of the post i'm resp

From:: Sharon Maher <smaher@looksmart.net>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.org>
Date:: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 15:41:13 -0700
Subject:: Re: (idm) mr scruff, reynolds rant

Forgive my comments here, if they sound harsh. I recognize the author of the post i'm responding to was only voicing his memory of the opinions of Simon Reynolds. Not having read his book i can't really judge his attitudes. However i still felt very motivated to speak my opinions: I disagree totally. I understand the rationale - that armchair avante-garde chinstroking elitism - ie you stay at home waxing poetic about difficult music - is less revolutionary than challenging the status quo via partying and drug use. First off, i'd argue that partying and druge use does not challenge the status qou. That's called teenage rebellion, and its had its cultural and musical movements for the last century. Read a book on the 60s if you don't belive me. However, furthermore, Reynolds' is suggesting that IDM is primarily an acedemic or avant garde medium, which it isn't. If you ever take college courses on electronic music in this country, you'll see that there is a large gap between the so-called avante garde and the vernacular. In my experience, a band like Einstruzende Neubauten receives no attention for their groundbreaking efforts where as artists like Philip Glass and Steve Reich are revered. And that's because the movement of a band like Neubauten was not rotted in academia and thus has to be dismissed. As for the present day, i see an artistic movement that directly counters the highly-commerical record industry very revolutionary. If your aim is to release challenging music and open minds as opposed to making money, isn't that challenging the status quo? I would argue that subverting the record industry is far more revolutionary than being a raver. However, my suspicions are that Reynolds doesn't see it this way because subverting the record industry would mean disinfranchising the place he's built for himself so that he can make a living off of very smugly assessing the relevancy of bands and music movements. Such as the piece of shit that he wrote in the first place.

quoted 12 lines As far as Simon Reynolds' tirade, I can't say that I disagree entirely. Maybe

> As far as Simon Reynolds' tirade, I can't say that I disagree entirely. Maybe > it's because I've read his book "Generation Ecstasy" (also worth scoring) and > know his whole argument. If you read that one you'll understand better where > he's coming from - he's more interested in music as an agent of social change > and personal transformation, and idm seems a bit too self-indulgent and > deliberately elitist to work in that direction. Compare someone who makes > "difficult/avant garde" music to a kid who goes out to raves every weekend and > eats loads of drugs - Reynolds would argue that the kid is actually doing more > to push the envelope, challenge the status quo, etc. while the "avant-garde" > musician is actually just working within the system for primarily self-indulgent > reasons. As long as the kid is conscious of his actions (which most aren't), I > can't say he's wrong on this one.

Re: (idm) mr scruff, reynolds rant