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RE: (idm) children have the right to music

8 messages · 6 participants · spans 4 days · search this subject
1999-03-11 13:24Irene McC (idm) children have the right to music
1999-03-11 14:04Re: (idm) children have the right to music
1999-03-11 17:46Che Re: (idm) children have the right to music
1999-03-11 18:00Perfect Sound Forever Re: (idm) children have the right to music
1999-03-12 03:17~\(\({\[Endemic~Distortion\]}\)\)~ Re: (idm) children have the right to music
1999-03-12 06:17Bob Bannister RE: (idm) children have the right to music
1999-03-12 18:34Che Re: (idm) children have the right to music
1999-03-15 08:24Re: (idm) children have the right to music
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1999-03-11 13:24Irene McCI'd just like to bounce this off you good people: Having picked up a flyer for an upcoming
From:
Irene McC
To:
Date:
Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:24:27 +0200
Subject:
(idm) children have the right to music
permalink · <E10L5Sx-000MJx-00@smtp02.iafrica.com>
I'd just like to bounce this off you good people: Having picked up a flyer for an upcoming Easter w'end 3-day outdoor music festival, I called the info line to find out when a particular act were scheduled to go on. A woman answered the phone - turns out she and her husband have run a music event promotional company for 5 years. After my saying I couldn't attend the whole weekend event due to it being awkward with my two children tagging along, she revealed that she was roughly my demographic : she's 39 and has two children. Currently very outraged because an independent TV company filmed footage at the last event and were apparently going to run a programme on 'the horrors that these irresponsible hippies on acid were exposing their children to' <not a verbatim quote, but close>. While I certainly don't classify myself within the above category, I feel that children can only benefit by being exposed to as wide a spectrum of our community. The recreational use of drugs has become part of our culture - whether it be frowned upon by society or not, legal or illegal, they are here and widespread - and kids will, at some stage, be forced to make a decision themselves whether or not to "experiment". Surely it is far wiser to come to this process prepared with knowledge, rather than to believe the mumbo jumbo that some sleazy pusher is telling you? As the graffiti goes: say KNOW to drugs. I am by NO means advocating drug abuse - but by denying the children the right to attend outdoor camping/music gatherings, we are marginalising certain groups even further. In this country of political turmoil and violence (here in South Africa one woman is raped every 54 seconds : those are the officially reported crimes on record) targeting peace loving tie-dye clad incense burning dancers seems very like rearraning the deckchairs on the Titanic. Note : I thoroughly agree that children have no place at indoor gigs, especially among drunken crowds. What I'm talking about are outdoor events, usually beginning at sunset with an ambient set. Generally they are held away from the city in really beauiful surroundings, near the sea, mountains or rivers. I make sure my children are warm, fed and cozy in a safe spot away from the noise. They do not come onto the dance arena - I usually walk them around the outskirts to familiarise them with the territory. They sleep, I check on them regularly. I'd really be interested in hearing your thoughts and comments. Thank you! I *
1999-03-11 14:04ibss@ukrpack.netIrene McC wrote: > > While I certainly don't classify myself within the above category, I
From:
To:
idm@hyperreal.org
Date:
Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:04:10 +0200
Subject:
Re: (idm) children have the right to music
permalink · <36E7CD5A.5B83C8A4@ukrpack.net>
Irene McC wrote:
quoted 11 lines While I certainly don't classify myself within the above category, I> > While I certainly don't classify myself within the above category, I > feel that children can only benefit by being exposed to as wide a > spectrum of our community. The recreational use of drugs has > become part of our culture - whether it be frowned upon by society > or not, legal or illegal, they are here and widespread - and kids will, > at some stage, be forced to make a decision themselves whether > or not to "experiment". Surely it is far wiser to come to this > process prepared with knowledge, rather than to believe the > mumbo jumbo that some sleazy pusher is telling you? As the > graffiti goes: say KNOW to drugs.
Absolute yes. That goes not only for drugs of any kind. It goes for sex and any issues normally prohibited for children view. No only because the earlier kid learns about that the more time he has to adaptate for that and KNOW about it when he encounters it in his life. Also because he learns about it from his parents the main source for trustworthy information for children. Many psyciatrists advise to learn children about such contradictory issues in full and as straight as possible so that they get objective opinion and not learn about junk from junky on the street whose responsibility before youngsters died ages ago.
quoted 4 lines In this country of political turmoil and violence (here in South Africa> In this country of political turmoil and violence (here in South Africa > one woman is > raped every 54 seconds : those are the officially reported crimes on > record)
Damn. That shocks. I live in crime ridden country but such figures would send shivers to much more callous person than me.
quoted 6 lines I'd really be interested in hearing your thoughts and comments.> I'd really be interested in hearing your thoughts and comments. > > Thank you! > > I > *
Alien
1999-03-11 17:46CheAt 03:24 PM 3/11/99 +0200, Irene McC wrote: > Currently very outraged because an independe
From:
Che
To:
Intelligent Dumb Music
Date:
Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:46:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject:
Re: (idm) children have the right to music
permalink · <Pine.BSF.3.96.990311094503.4186A-100000@beacon.synthcom.com>
At 03:24 PM 3/11/99 +0200, Irene McC wrote:
quoted 5 lines Currently very outraged because an independent TV> Currently very outraged because an independent TV >company filmed footage at the last event and were apparently going >to run a programme on 'the horrors that these irresponsible hippies >on acid were exposing their children to' <not a verbatim quote, but >close>.
Ah yes, we've had some of that in the US too, usually involving Deadheads (nomadic followers of the Grateful Dead). What's hilarious is when they interview the cops, and the cops say "they're much better behaved than kids at a rock concert, and they even pick up their litter". It's important to remember that bad news serves an important function - to make advertisements seem like good news. The media need a constant stream of bad news, so they tend to slant things in that direction. Also, by negatively commenting on drugs, they are contributing important propaganda to the ludicrous "War On Drugs".
quoted 3 lines While I certainly don't classify myself within the above category, I>While I certainly don't classify myself within the above category, I >feel that children can only benefit by being exposed to as wide a >spectrum of our community.
Some people believe in teaching their kids to think for themselves. Some people believe in teaching their kids not to think. I'm glad to see you belong to the former, not the latter. Che "Aphex's records are now available via the BMG music club. Time for another "save the underground" revival!" - Zenon M. Feszczak
1999-03-11 18:00Perfect Sound ForeverThough I don't have any kids yet, I'd actually imagine that taking them to a show in a sup
From:
Perfect Sound Forever
To:
Date:
Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:00:06 -0500
Subject:
Re: (idm) children have the right to music
permalink · <36E804A6.5A888C05@furious.com>
Though I don't have any kids yet, I'd actually imagine that taking them to a show in a supervised way might actually be a good sociological excursion! What better way to show them 'this is your brain on drugs- isn't that sad?' as you watch some of more hapless audience members fall under the spell of narcotics? Even at the rowdest and noisest shows I've been to (except in some really small clubs), there's room somewhere in the back or the sides to stand away and observe. Jason -- Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect
1999-03-12 03:17~\(\({\[Endemic~Distortion\]}\)\)~My addition to this discussion would be to emphasize that there is input from the parent c
From:
~\(\({\[Endemic~Distortion\]}\)\)~
To:
Cc:
Ipso Dicto Mambo , Irene McC
Date:
Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:17:38 -0800
Subject:
Re: (idm) children have the right to music
permalink · <36E88751.4E4F0411@flash.net>
My addition to this discussion would be to emphasize that there is input from the parent concerning what the child is exposed to...an interpretive framework, if you will. One of the great fallacies of our day and age (imo, of course) goes something like "if people have the right INFORMATION, they will make the correct decision". Bull. People are bombarded with all kinds of input in the guise of a panacea (e.g., show children how to use condoms and they will...tell them smoking causes cancer and they'll quit, etc.) and we still continue to do whatever we please (and OF COURSE I'm generalizing and NOT saying that education is completely ineffective or shouldn't be pursued). On top of this, I find it odd that so many shrinks who follow and accept the Piagets, Kohlenbergs and Eriksons will turn around and recommend exposing children to whatever and "letting them make their own decisions". There are some decisions that children simply are not mature enough to make (I'm always amused when I see some person trying to reason with a 5 year old in a store who is climbing up on a shelf and tossing sale items at people and screaming at the top of his/her lungs). Again, I'm not saying anyone should lock their kids up in a closet until they are 20 and then expect them to deal with a wacky world, but I would excercise caution with regard to expecting children to handle and process exposure to certain behaviors at an early age. They'll probably be exposed to it soon enough. I DO think it important that the adult is there to discuss these things responsibly when the time comes. A lot is going to depend on the specific child as to when that is. jeff ibss@ukrpack.net wrote:
quoted 45 lines Irene McC wrote:> Irene McC wrote: > > > > > While I certainly don't classify myself within the above category, I > > feel that children can only benefit by being exposed to as wide a > > spectrum of our community. The recreational use of drugs has > > become part of our culture - whether it be frowned upon by society > > or not, legal or illegal, they are here and widespread - and kids will, > > at some stage, be forced to make a decision themselves whether > > or not to "experiment". Surely it is far wiser to come to this > > process prepared with knowledge, rather than to believe the > > mumbo jumbo that some sleazy pusher is telling you? As the > > graffiti goes: say KNOW to drugs. > > Absolute yes. That goes not only for drugs of any kind. It goes for sex > and > any issues normally prohibited for children view. No only because the > earlier kid learns about that the more time he has to adaptate for that > and > KNOW about it when he encounters it in his life. Also because he learns > about it from his parents the main source for trustworthy information > for > children. Many psyciatrists advise to learn children about such > contradictory issues in full and as straight as possible so that they > get > objective opinion and not learn about junk from junky on the street > whose > responsibility before youngsters died ages ago. > > > In this country of political turmoil and violence (here in South Africa > > one woman is > > raped every 54 seconds : those are the officially reported crimes on > > record) > > Damn. That shocks. I live in crime ridden country but such figures would > send shivers to much more callous person than me. > > > I'd really be interested in hearing your thoughts and comments. > > > > Thank you! > > > > I > > * > > Alien
-- jeff ...Great times and noodle salad. dancing/about/architecture "...with wandering steps and slow..." ICQ904008
1999-03-12 06:17Bob BannisterI pulled the Jan Hammer/Jerry Goodman "Like Children" out of storage fairly recently and e
From:
Bob Bannister
To:
'idm@hyperreal.org'
Date:
Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:17:17 -0500
Subject:
RE: (idm) children have the right to music
permalink · <01BE6C26.594677A0.bobban@wextech.com>
I pulled the Jan Hammer/Jerry Goodman "Like Children" out of storage fairly recently and enjoyed it much more than I'd expected - at the time it came out, of course, its legitimacy for me lay in its being post-Mahavishnu (unless you're a big fan of the The Flock) but Hammer kind of squandered his reputation with all that Miami Vice stuff in the 80s - kind of the Bob James of fusion I guess. As for taking kids to gigs or cultural events in general, I'm all in favor and that news blip you referred to seems quite likely the work of people who fear, distrust and just don't understand rave/dance culture in general and seize upon the presence of children as a convenient way to cast aspersions on something that, in the pretense of pluralism, they'd ordinarily have to portray in more neutral terms. My son's 4th year has included seeing the big Mego fest outdoors last summer - needless to say he didn't care much about the music (he enjoyed the dancing part later, just not the screeching noise that was apparently coming out of those laptop computers) - as for exposure to drug use, he did sit and chat amiably with Russell Haswell about the sculpture in the outdoor garden while the latter smoked his post-performance "bone" but I doubt he understands that there are varieties of cigarettes. We also attended the annual winter solstice drone-fest at avant-garde NYC composer Phill Niblock's loft in Chinatown - this consisted of hours of humming, melodic sustained drones on tape while various musicians played along live, accompanied by films of Chinese peasants going about their daily activities of fishing and farming which included footage of enormous sides meat on hooks being hacked apart with machetes - now that was scary, but he fell asleep quickly nonetheless. He's also fond of the enormous range of imported Japanese toys at the Mondo Kim's store where I sometimes drag him on record shopping trips - since the merchandise is aimed at adult collectors, it's a bit of a problem that the harmless stuff he likes (Sailormoon, Dragonball-Z) is side by side with the unabashedly pornographic - maybe when he's learned to read and see that they stock something called "The Cunt Coloring Book", I'll have to think twice about taking him along. Right now the problem is just convincing him that, no, that 6-inch tall action figure is not worth $30 (I mean not compared to a Skam 12" or anything!). <What I'm talking about are outdoor events, usually beginning at sunset with an ambient set. Generally they are held away from the city in really beauiful surroundings, near the sea, mountains or rivers.> All of your descriptions of these events are so pastoral - around here just walking to school and buying a sweet at the corner store on the way home involves more exposure to vice than what those film-makers fear (and we live in a decent neighborhood - it's just a big gritty American city of the sort where millions of kids spend every day). It's always amusing what a little time and money will do to temper memory - Woodstock is currently being used to sell tampons here in an ad presumably aimed at middle-aged mothers who will be advising their teenaged daughters' purchases. Still undecided whether to send this just to Irene or the list -after the "clitorides" thread I guess nothing is off-topic. Bob
1999-03-12 18:34CheAt 01:00 PM 3/11/99 -0500, Perfect Sound Forever wrote: >Even at the rowdest and noisest s
From:
Che
To:
Intelligent Dumb Music
Date:
Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:34:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject:
Re: (idm) children have the right to music
permalink · <Pine.BSF.3.96.990312103338.9879A-100000@beacon.synthcom.com>
At 01:00 PM 3/11/99 -0500, Perfect Sound Forever wrote:
quoted 1 line Even at the rowdest and noisest shows I've been to (except in some really>Even at the rowdest and noisest shows I've been to (except in some really
small clubs),
quoted 1 line there's room somewhere in the back or the sides to stand away and observe.>there's room somewhere in the back or the sides to stand away and observe.
Just one more note - hearing protection is a MUST for children! Kids' ears are much more sensitive than us old folks', so please take care of them. I've almost gotten into fights w/ idiots who bring their babies to concerts unprotected - it really pisses me off. Che "Aphex's records are now available via the BMG music club. Time for another "save the underground" revival!" - Zenon M. Feszczak
1999-03-15 08:24ibss@ukrpack.netYep. I'm in Ukraine. And I wish we had such events as you described in your letter as here
From:
To:
idm@hyperreal.org
Date:
Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:24:56 +0200
Subject:
Re: (idm) children have the right to music
permalink · <36ECC3D8.FAACAD90@ukrpack.net>
Yep. I'm in Ukraine. And I wish we had such events as you described in your letter as here we can only buy CDs and vinyl to listen to electronic music (especially intellegent one), which has always been a task to solve as none of the CD shops features it - we never had electronica live events here, no exposure on TV or radio (Not to mention my act of Ae popularization when a friend of mine - a DJ on now closed alternative radio featured all my Ae collection in two hours dedicated radioshow. That was more than a pleasure to hear my native city listening to my CDs). Unfortunately only enthusiasts like me, my friends and some other open-minded folks seem to care about it. With respect to the subject I reiterate that I'm convinced that children have the right to truth. best wishes Alien Irene McC wrote:
quoted 14 lines On 11 Mar 99, ibss@ukrpack.net wrote re: Re: (idm) children have the right t:> On 11 Mar 99, ibss@ukrpack.net wrote re: Re: (idm) children have the right t: > > > Damn. That shocks. I live in crime ridden country > > Hello! > > thank you for responding to my letter - it's been interesting hearing > other people's views. Where do you live? In the Ukraine? (I'm > guessing this from your e-mail address, but could be wrong). > > Good luck ! > > I > *