IDM Mailing Archive

someone wrote

quoted 5 lines O.K. --- Now, can anyone tell me where the following is written on any

> > O.K. --- Now, can anyone tell me where the following is written on any > > of the Mask labels or packaging? > > > > "(c) xxxxx, 1998. All Rights Reserved. All duplication is a violation of > > applicable laws."

it's not....cuz I designed the artwork inna minimal stylee....any of that bullshit would have compromised the design... but, If you want to see skam 12"s plastered with legal bullshit so it looks more like a lawyers office desk than a piece of graphic design, fine... mail me and let me know.... the music has nothing to do with me, so I can't comment...but If I find out people are copying MY shit...well, that's different peacyweace.. bri (c) studio moo productions 1999 any duplication is an open declaration for the offender that he wishes to have his jaw ripped out of his skull.. ;)

*pokes head out of lurk mode* *sniffs the air* "what's that smell?" "oh, it's the smoke from a flamewar over copyright issues, just starting to burn!" *ducks head back down into lurk mode* Bill / dj marathon Sam Frank wrote:

quoted 34 lines Good luck looking, because you won't find it. Now, does that mean that

> > > > > Good luck looking, because you won't find it. Now, does that mean that > > > > such a warning simply goes without saying? > > > > > > > > yes. much in the same way that if you go out and shoot someone, you won't be > > > able to avoid jail by saying "i've never seen a written law that says you > > > can't shoot someone". > > > > > > I see - that explains the guy who got 'busted' in Arizona for carrying > > an entire trunkload of pure MDMA and then got off perfectly scot-free > > because the lawmen had misspelled the chemical name for Ecstasy in the > > laws proscribing it. > > Better example: There are laws against murder. therefore, I don't have > to wear a sign that says "Don't kill me, it's illegal." Copyright is > pretty damn complicated and i don't pretend to understand all the legal or > ethical issues, but there are basic laws that protect artist's ownership > of what they've written (and written reminders are just that, reminders, > not law themselves), and there are basic ethical principles which say > 'don't rip something off unless you're going to add your own creativity to > it." However you feel about the damn MASK limited editions, it seems > pretty obvious that artists have the right to define how their work looks, > sounds, and in what quantity/format/whatever it is produced. "Hey, > there's only one Mona > lisa. Let's get a computer to repaint exact copies." Make copies if you > want, but be prepared to suffer the consequences if you're caught. > There's something to be said for universal access to art, but there are > also good arguments for art as object, rare commodity. It all comes down > to how you value it... And the artists, if anyone, have the right to > value their own art. At least, they have the law on their side. > > Sam

-- Sigma6 Interactive Media / http://www.sigma6.com dj marathon: "fibre" up now @ http://www.flatplastic.com/

On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Bill VanLoo wrote:

quoted 11 lines *pokes head out of lurk mode*

> *pokes head out of lurk mode* > > *sniffs the air* > > "what's that smell?" > > "oh, it's the smoke from a flamewar over copyright issues, just starting to > burn!" > > *ducks head back down into lurk mode* >

Nah. It's the ghetto boys, burning a little bush. I can't think of any topic that interests me less. I could probably go on for a few paragraphs -- as a producer and sampler, I've thought about the issues involved. But I might fall asleep on the keyboard. I will say this -- there is a buttload of trading and bootlegging going on on the Internet, but 99% of it goes on without being announced on public mailing lists. Word to the wise -- figure out how to do it without talking about it here.

So it's 7:20 AM, and the phone rings. My wife wakes up first and answers it, which is not fun in itself because sleep is a precious ('limited edition,' as it were) commodity around here. It's for me. Crackling phone line, some cat most likely from the UK (accent) on the other end with a simple message: 'Hey, is this Christian?' 'Yes.' 'O.K., stop fucking ripping off our music, understand?' ...at which point I try to explain succinctly to the caller (Masked Musician? Andy Maddocks of Skam?) that the CDR trade he's referring to is not being done for profit by any *stretch* of the imagination. A few other toasted CDRs of a wide range of bands? Not even enough extra money coming from purchasers of the set to subsidize extra blank discs for those who are trading? This can hardly be called a bootlegger's profit. This suggestion, that someone might be copying their material not for bootlegger's profit but simply because it's *good* music (music they're economic fools about, inasmuch as they're not making it more readily available) leaves the caller either incredulous or completely confused. 'Just stop ripping off our fucking music.' Click. O.K. --- Now, can anyone tell me where the following is written on any of the Mask labels or packaging? "(c) xxxxx, 1998. All Rights Reserved. All duplication is a violation of applicable laws." Good luck looking, because you won't find it. Now, does that mean that such a warning simply goes without saying? I bought this material, and once it's become my property, it simply has become my property, n'est-ce pas? That's why I pay extra taxes on my all digital audio equipment & tapes: to subsidize the fact that I'm essentially allowed to do whatever the hell I want with these recordings once I've purchased them. In any event, we could indulge in sophistry to no end about all this, but the fact remains that irrespective of questions of rights, I've offended somebody. That's why the trade is closing. But I ask you, you who phoned me: Do you think William S. Burroughs objected to pirate printings of 'Naked Lunch' or that Vladimir Nabokov did the same with reference to 'Lolita' when they were banned for commercial sale in the United States? Short answer: NO. The fact that there were bootleg copies of each book floating around when commercial availability wasn't possible indicated something important: that these writers were masters of their craft who demanded to be heard. The cultivation of an artistic reputation is worth more than money -- even someone as preciously dim as Andy Warhol knew that. In short, taking simple a tip from the last track on Mask 400: "Where the money can't be fucking up your generation?" IDM-People: Judging solely from this morning's call, I wouldn't be surprised if the Mask folks have their hand in these absurd auctions. And even if they don't (let's be reasonable), you can be damn sure that they *wish* they did. And as for the CDR trade putting a dent in future potential sales of an official Mask compilation CDS? *I'd* buy one. And I'm the one who mastered the damn CDRs. peace sr -- sd

quoted 8 lines O.K. --- Now, can anyone tell me where the following is written on any

>O.K. --- Now, can anyone tell me where the following is written on any >of the Mask labels or packaging? > >"(c) xxxxx, 1998. All Rights Reserved. All duplication is a violation of >applicable laws." > >Good luck looking, because you won't find it. Now, does that mean that >such a warning simply goes without saying?

Under the Berne Convention, which both the US and UK are party to, yes. Unless an original work is explicitly placed in the public domain by its creator, it is automatically protected by copyright. C. -- Chris.Hilker (cspot@hyperreal.org)

that cat wrote:

quoted 9 lines O.K. --- Now, can anyone tell me where the following is written on any

> > O.K. --- Now, can anyone tell me where the following is written on any > > of the Mask labels or packaging? > > > > "(c) xxxxx, 1998. All Rights Reserved. All duplication is a violation of > > applicable laws." > > > > Good luck looking, because you won't find it. Now, does that mean that > > such a warning simply goes without saying? >

quoted 3 lines yes. much in the same way that if you go out and shoot someone, you won't be

> yes. much in the same way that if you go out and shoot someone, you won't be > able to avoid jail by saying "i've never seen a written law that says you > can't shoot someone".

I see - that explains the guy who got 'busted' in Arizona for carrying an entire trunkload of pure MDMA and then got off perfectly scot-free because the lawmen had misspelled the chemical name for Ecstasy in the laws proscribing it. Etc., etc. sr -- sd

quoted 13 lines Good luck looking, because you won't find it. Now, does that mean that

> > > Good luck looking, because you won't find it. Now, does that mean that > > > such a warning simply goes without saying? > > > > > yes. much in the same way that if you go out and shoot someone, you won't be > > able to avoid jail by saying "i've never seen a written law that says you > > can't shoot someone". > > > I see - that explains the guy who got 'busted' in Arizona for carrying > an entire trunkload of pure MDMA and then got off perfectly scot-free > because the lawmen had misspelled the chemical name for Ecstasy in the > laws proscribing it.

Better example: There are laws against murder. therefore, I don't have to wear a sign that says "Don't kill me, it's illegal." Copyright is pretty damn complicated and i don't pretend to understand all the legal or ethical issues, but there are basic laws that protect artist's ownership of what they've written (and written reminders are just that, reminders, not law themselves), and there are basic ethical principles which say 'don't rip something off unless you're going to add your own creativity to it." However you feel about the damn MASK limited editions, it seems pretty obvious that artists have the right to define how their work looks, sounds, and in what quantity/format/whatever it is produced. "Hey, there's only one Mona lisa. Let's get a computer to repaint exact copies." Make copies if you want, but be prepared to suffer the consequences if you're caught. There's something to be said for universal access to art, but there are also good arguments for art as object, rare commodity. It all comes down to how you value it... And the artists, if anyone, have the right to value their own art. At least, they have the law on their side. Sam

let's make this more efficient. while i am strongly looking forward to a vigorous copyright discussion (since copyright issues are a matter of opinion rather than lame legal facts, after all), I thought I'd include in the same thread some other questions I've had for a long time: - how many cds does everyone have, and how do you categorize them? - and what do you think, is vinyl better or cds? - does the toothpaste cd-repair trick really work? - and how do you flatten warped records? - why are there so few girls on the list? - is the bleepbloop server up currently? - can someone give me the tracklisting for SAWII please? - quite generally, why do record labels release limited editions at all? - is the bleepbloop server down currently? - doesn't it suck that the majors start cashing in on our music? - btw, why is IDM called intelligent dance music? - can someone suggest some good mailorder places? - how do you pronounce autechre? ok, so much for the questions, here's my 0.02 Euro to the debate: I was told by a friend who knows someone that works in a law firm that in most countries you can probably burn CDRs and trade them as long as you think it's not for profit and as long as the copyright owner doesn't mind or thinks he doesn't mind or doesn't want to make profits or simply is a socialist and as long as you don't write copyright tom t 1999 on your burnt cdr because that's a clear copyright infringement i know that for a fact and these are probably illegal though i don't know why but I'm not a legal expert but anyways let me give you an illustrative example see if the aphex twin rolled over the skam pressing plant with his tank i mean boy would that ever suck and he couldnt just go like hey dudes i didnt see a sign that said dont roll over our pressing plant with your tank could he i mean could he see what i mean ok so back to the facts whats for sure is that as long as the cdr thinks it's blank and as long as you invest your profits in tanks you can't get busted becauzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzz z zzz z zz z

Excerpts from mail: 12-Jan-99 Re: (idm) Mask - To Burn or.. by Tom Tonger@uni-koeln.de

quoted 1 line - is the bleepbloop server up currently?

> - is the bleepbloop server up currently?

Aw shucks, I've been immortalized on IDM as a purveyor of lame threads. *blush* Aaron

quoted 4 lines see what i mean ok so back to the facts whats for sure is that as

> see what i mean ok so back to the facts whats for sure is that as > long as the cdr thinks it's blank and as long as you invest your profits in > tanks you can't get busted becauzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzz z > zzz z zz z

as I understand, this is also the position Talvin Singh takes in reference to his music being used to promote (!!) the Philips Dual-Deck CDR-Recorder. That's right, folks - just stick a disc in one side, and bingo! out comes a clone on the other side. remember -- home taping is killing music (sic) sr -- sd

"J. Christian Guerrero" <lacanian@mindspring.com> wrote:

quoted 3 lines ...at which point I try to explain succinctly to the caller (Masked

> ...at which point I try to explain succinctly to the caller (Masked > Musician? Andy Maddocks of Skam?) that the CDR trade he's referring to > is not being done for profit by any *stretch* of the imagination.

Umm, you're selling 2CDR sets of MASKs 1-4 for $10. At domestic postage rates & present blank CDR prices, that's a profit of at least $2 a CD, which is a dream for most musicians. Most are lucky to get $1 for each sale. Geez, $10 a set & you're trying to say that there is no personal profit there, & after advertising on the list like ten times trying to get people to buy these, constantly sending updates & commenting on how such innumerable quantities of people there were who were going to buy these, I really can't believe you're so appalled that someone suggested you were ripping them off. I'm posting this response to the list in hopes that other people won't participate in, & then try to defend, such blatant theft & profiting of pirated music on this list.

quoted 9 lines But I ask you, you who phoned me: Do you think William S. Burroughs

> But I ask you, you who phoned me: Do you think William S. Burroughs > objected to pirate printings of 'Naked Lunch' or that Vladimir Nabokov > did the same with reference to 'Lolita' when they were banned for > commercial sale in the United States? Short answer: NO. The fact that > there were bootleg copies of each book floating around when commercial > availability wasn't possible indicated something important: that these > writers were masters of their craft who demanded to be heard. The > cultivation of an artistic reputation is worth more than money -- even > someone as preciously dim as Andy Warhol knew that.

Clearly a bad analogy as those were government BANNED works, not LIMITED by the manufacturers. Marc Poirier

quoted 2 lines that's a profit of at least $2 a CD,

> that's a profit of at least $2 a CD, > which is a dream for most musicians.

a "profit" quickly whittled away once one considers that CDRs for those who would be trading cost something, too.

quoted 6 lines even

> even > > someone as preciously dim as Andy Warhol knew that. > > Clearly a bad analogy as those were government BANNED works, not LIMITED > by the manufacturers. >

obviously you missed the point -- i don't think andy warhol's works were ever banned sr -- sd