IDM Mailing Archive

Hi all, Wondering what people are thinking about the new Wagon Christ full-length. I just picked up a copy yesterday -- which i think was the domestic release date anyway. I know that there has been some talk about it, but just curious what others think. In light of Throbbing Pouch, it seems as though he collected a lot of fun wacky material and lots of fun new toys and gadgets just before Throbbing Pouch was recorded . . . But now this new release seems like he's learned more about his new toys ... same style, same general feel, but fuller and more mature (dare i say??). Curious if others think the same, sean.

Tally Ho! is one killer record. With every Luke Vibert release I am reminded how much fun can be had with a bunch of vinyl records and a sampler (well throw some synths in too for good measure). I love Ae type stuff, but when it becomes too much abstraction, I always return to the collage work of Vibert and Amon (and others). You know what I mean, it's not about treating the samples, it's about how they interact with each in certain contexts. I believe that often that takes more skill than delving into abstraction... My favorite art is the kind filled with contrasts, and Luke Vibert's work is no excpetion. Never have I heard such meticulous attention to detail sound so care-free. His records consistently create a good vibe, reminding the listener not to take the artist too seriously, because after all he's just dorking around with his sampler and a collection of records. DJ shadow eat your heart out. peace Nate On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Sean McGonagle wrote:

quoted 18 lines Hi all,

> Hi all, > > Wondering what people are thinking about the new Wagon Christ full-length. > I just picked up a copy yesterday -- which i think was the domestic release > date anyway. > > I know that there has been some talk about it, but just curious what others > think. > > In light of Throbbing Pouch, it seems as though he collected a lot of fun > wacky material and lots of fun new toys and gadgets just before Throbbing > Pouch was recorded . . . But now this new release seems like he's learned > more about his new toys ... same style, same general feel, but fuller and > more mature (dare i say??). > > Curious if others think the same, > sean. >

On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Nate Harrison [Toshok Laboratories] wrote:

quoted 3 lines My favorite art is the kind filled with contrasts, and Luke Vibert's work

> My favorite art is the kind filled with contrasts, and Luke Vibert's work > is no excpetion. Never have I heard such meticulous attention to detail > sound so care-free.

Does this mean Vibert is finally taking the time to make sure his samples are in tune and in key? Che

Che wrote:

quoted 2 lines Does this mean Vibert is finally taking the time to make sure his samples

> Does this mean Vibert is finally taking the time to make sure his samples > are in tune and in key?

The day I ever start to even remotely care about anything like that someone please kindly take me out back and kindly put a big-assed slug in the back of my head. pretty damned glad to have never taken courses in music theory, -d.w.

It doesn't have anything to do w/ music theory. Some people are physically sensitive to it. Sometimes I find something out of key to be painful. No shit. I heard a blind guy interviewed on NPR once who had to listen to just-tempered instruments, because well-tempered ones were too out of tune for him. Even then, he found some classical composers to be discordant. Personally, I find it to be a curse, especially since there are so many tone-deaf people making techno. There are 3 tracks on Big Soup that I can't listen to, so I think the question is valid. Che On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Dave Walker wrote:

quoted 15 lines Che wrote:

> Che wrote: > > > Does this mean Vibert is finally taking the time to make sure his samples > > are in tune and in key? > > The day I ever start to even remotely care about anything like that > someone please kindly take me out back and kindly > put a big-assed slug in the back of my head. > > pretty damned glad to have never > taken courses in music theory, > -d.w. > > >

quoted 3 lines Personally, I find it to be a curse, especially since there are so many

> Personally, I find it to be a curse, especially since there are so many > tone-deaf people making techno. There are 3 tracks on Big Soup that I > can't listen to, so I think the question is valid.

Never ever ever listen to any of my tracks then :) brap@sonic.net icq_12645306 http://www.sonic.net/~brap/ coming sooner than later: sfwd0004 - pre-mil·len·ni·um soundscapes 12" our future has never been so frightening: http://williamshatner.com/

On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Che wrote: | Personally, I find it to be a curse, especially since there are so many | tone-deaf people making techno. There are 3 tracks on Big Soup that I | can't listen to, so I think the question is valid. Umm, do you mean tone-deaf, or not having perfect pitch? Tally Ho! sounds to me as tuned as any "pop" record I've heard. He also doesn't blatantly play things in different keys, like he has, if that's what you mean from a non-music theory perspective. Michael ____________________________________________ "Also, he has automatic evasion devices" http://www.vuw.ac.nz/~michael/jj.html

On 17 Oct 98, Dave Walker wrote re: Re: (idm) Tally Ho!:

quoted 6 lines The day I ever start to even remotely care about anything like that

> The day I ever start to even remotely care about anything like that > someone please kindly take me out back and kindly > put a big-assed slug in the back of my head. > > pretty damned glad to have never > taken courses in music theory,

Jeez, I'm trying to force my two bits of jaw together. I * no : Fila Brazillia - Powerclown (yip, it's in tune :-))

On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Dave Walker wrote: | The day I ever start to even remotely care about anything like that | someone please kindly take me out back and kindly put a big-assed slug | in the back of my head. | pretty damned glad to have never | taken courses in music theory, Music theory doesn't do that to you, just as being able to play a guitar quickly doesn't mean you will play noodly solos. Maybe there is an overlap in who wants to learn that kind of stuff, but one doesn't automatically mean the other. As with all kinds of information, you can collect it cos you want to find out more about what you already like, or you can collect it cos you have been told it's important to do so. Hmm false dichotomy, but never mind. Michael np. 'Stuck inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues Again' - Bob Dylan (it rocks ;) ____________________________________________ "Also, he has automatic evasion devices" http://www.vuw.ac.nz/~michael/jj.html

On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Dave Walker wrote:

quoted 11 lines Che wrote:

> Che wrote: > > > Does this mean Vibert is finally taking the time to make sure his samples > > are in tune and in key? > > The day I ever start to even remotely care about anything like that > someone please kindly take me out back and kindly > put a big-assed slug in the back of my head. > > pretty damned glad to have never > taken courses in music theory,

I HAVE taken courses in Music Theory, and I never hear 'out of tune' samples in Luke Vibert's stuff, so maybe I have a wider concept of in tune and in key than Che. What Charlie Parker brought to jazz back in the 40's was extending the concept of what was in key. Hip Hoppers and adventerous samplers make things that 'sound right' even though they're juxtaposing things that are nominally in different keys. To some extent they're plowing the same row as Charlie Parker was. It all comes from the harmonic series. A C major chord is C-E-G, C Minor is C-Eb-G. If you add the flat seven (C-E-G-Bb) then you have a C7, the basic blues chord. If you add the sharp seven (C-E-G-B) then you have the basic jazz chord. What if you keep going up the chordal scale? You can have a 9th chord (C-E-G-D) or flat 9th (C-E-G-C#) or 11th (C-E-G-F) or 13th (C-E-G-A). Now, think on this: If C is your root key, and you start adding notes to the chord at the 7th, you have the C triad (C-E-G) and add in the seventh, nineth and eleventh (B D F) then you have a C chord up against a B diminished chord. B to F is a Tritone, or 'diminished' 5th, which is a dischord. But it can work harmonically to the ear if it's done right. Furthermore if you add the 9th, 11th, and 13th to a C major chord, you're playing (C-E-G) against (D F A) which is a D minor chord. But it can work to your ear, even though you're playing chords in two different keys together! So maybe that's too analytical for you, but the fact remains that the concept of 'in key' and 'out of key' are fuzzy concepts. And if you want to talk about 'in tune' and 'out of tune' I can throw up a similar argument about the concept of intonation. Did you know that 95% of western music is out of tune, and that it's done that way on purpose?

Che wrote:

quoted 3 lines Personally, I find it to be a curse, especially since there are so many

> Personally, I find it to be a curse, especially since there are so many > tone-deaf people making techno. There are 3 tracks on Big Soup that I > can't listen to, so I think the question is valid.

Ouch -- in this case I apologize. I imagine this must be pretty bad, as I imagine a great deal of "popular" (I'm using this in it's broadest sense, to refer to pop, rock, electronic music, hippo, jazz, etc.) is being made by people (like myself) without any sort of formal knowledge of the rules of pitch, harmony, etc. I certainly don't envy you this sensitivity. -d.w.

At 03:24 PM 10/17/98 -0400, Dave Walker wrote:

quoted 7 lines Ouch -- in this case I apologize. I imagine this must be pretty bad,

> >Ouch -- in this case I apologize. I imagine this must be pretty bad, >as I imagine a great deal of "popular" (I'm using this in >it's broadest sense, to refer to pop, rock, electronic music, hippo, >jazz, etc.) is being made by people (like myself) without >any sort of formal knowledge of the rules of >pitch, harmony, etc. I certainly don't envy you this sensitivity.

Thanks for understanding that I'm not some academic asshole or a snotty muso type. :) Pop music tends not to suffer from this because pop musicians have producers, and one of the producer's main tasks is to make sure everything is in tune and in key. When someone says something is "well produced", they should make sure the music's not out of tune or dissonant (unless dissnonance is desired). I heard a great story from a Nile Rogers radio interview about one day when he was producing a Duran Duran album, and he came into the studio and the two guitarists were jamming & asked him why it sounded so bad. It took him just a few seconds to figure out that even though the guitars were in tune, they were tuned to different keys. Doh! Their knowledge of music consisted of knowing the fingering for chords and how to work a guitar tuner. That wasn't enough to guarantee good results. I think most non-tone-deaf people can tell when something is badly out of tune or key, as long as it's not the bass (most musicians I know have trouble tuning a bass - I've heard out of tune bass on 4Hero, Amon Tobin, Seefeel, and lots of others). It factors into whether or not something sounds good or bad, even if there's no formal knowledge of the rules. Luckily most digital synths are always in tune, and most techno boffins quickly learn how to work the "tune" knob on their analogue kit, so it's usually not a problem. However, samples aren't always in tune, especially when transposed to fit a tempo. That's where I tend to have problems. I think the worst case I've ever heard was an Ultramarine track that sampled the Beagle's "One Of These Nights" (Saratoga, I think. Left a bad taste in my mouth, but my friend Cam insists that I give them another shot.). I think it's great when non-musicians make music - to me that's a key to the freshness of the "Techno Revolution". I'm mostly self-taught as far as music goes, and used to feel a bit insecure when jamming w/ "real musicians". Then I checked out a book on 20th century harmony, and learned that anything goes, as long as it sounds good to you. Me, I tend to prefer 8 notes per key (out of 12) and no "non-integer" notes. Your mileage may vary, and that's cool. Just warn me in a review, ok? Che

On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Che wrote:

quoted 5 lines I think most non-tone-deaf people can tell when something is badly out of

> I think most non-tone-deaf people can tell when something is badly out of > tune or key, as long as it's not the bass (most musicians I know have > trouble tuning a bass - I've heard out of tune bass on 4Hero, Amon Tobin, > Seefeel, and lots of others). It factors into whether or not something > sounds good or bad, even if there's no formal knowledge of the rules.

really? perhaps the only real grasp of music tonality theory i have is my bass, then. i'm a natural bass player - been playing for about 11 years now. i only picked it back up a year or so ago and started diddling with it. now i'm having psycho fun with it. ever since i recently read an interview with wendy carlos from a few years back where she was talking about the making of _switched-on bach 2000_ and how she had to set up completely alternate tuning systems for some of his classics, i've been all over this alternate tuning business. currently, my bass is well-tempered, but after this email i'm tempted to try some microtonal tunings (a programmable bass tuner was the best $90 i ever spent). ;)

quoted 2 lines However, samples aren't always in tune, especially when transposed to

> However, samples aren't always in tune, especially when transposed to > fit a tempo. That's where I tend to have problems.

can we say happy hardcore? :) * #### a disturbance in a system. #### laerm. @voicenet.com ##:# i nostri sogni sono sempre presenti

Che wrote:

quoted 3 lines When someone says something is "well produced", they

> When someone says something is "well produced", they > should make sure the music's not out of tune or dissonant (unless > dissnonance is desired).

I was going to ask about this. I can think of many artists who seem to use dissonance deliberately as an elemental part of their sound. For example, there's very pronounced (and deliberate, I think) oscillator drift happening in a lot of Boards of Canada material (which contributes to that whole 70's filmstrip / Logan's Run vibe, IMO.) Can you stand to listen to their stuff? I can remember discovering Sonic Youth (around the time of _Evol_) back in the eighties and having a really hard time with their tunings until it sort of "clicked" for me and I've loved them ever since. What about tracks featuring mellotrons (which seem to be fundamentally incapable of maintaining consistent pitch) -- can you listen to them? I picked up a Silver Apples disc earlier this year which is really fascinating stuff, but the homemade synths are all over the place tonally, and now that you mention it I suppose the "queasiness" factor is maybe one reason I don't play it more often.

quoted 3 lines think the worst case I've ever heard was an Ultramarine track that sampled

> think the worst case I've ever heard was an Ultramarine track that sampled > the Beagle's "One Of These Nights" (Saratoga, I think. Left a bad taste in > my mouth, but my friend Cam insists that I give them another shot.).

I'm familiar with that track -- there's vocal scat sample that's wildly out of tune with the rest of the track, but I always figured it was deliberate, since it was so far off.

quoted 3 lines Me, I tend to prefer

> Me, I tend to prefer > 8 notes per key (out of 12) and no "non-integer" notes. Your mileage may > vary, and that's cool. Just warn me in a review, ok?

I'll try, assuming I can tell. :) -d.w.

On 19 Oct 98, Dave Walker wrote re: Re: (idm) Tally Ho:

quoted 2 lines I suppose the "queasiness" factor is

> I suppose the "queasiness" factor is > maybe one reason I don't play it more often.

Olive's Miracle remix by Roni Size has the fem vox coming in totally off key (and remaining consistently so throughout the track). At first it bothered me HORRIBLY but then I became accustomed to the sound being 'like that' - who knows? Maybe he wanted it that way to create sonic tension. I *

On Mon, 19 Oct 1998, Dave Walker wrote:

quoted 11 lines I was going to ask about this. I can think of many artists who seem to use

> I was going to ask about this. I can think of many artists who seem to use > dissonance deliberately as an elemental part of their sound. For example, > there's very pronounced (and deliberate, I think) oscillator drift happening > in a lot of Boards of Canada material (which contributes to that whole 70's > filmstrip / Logan's Run vibe, IMO.) Can you stand to listen to their > stuff? I can remember discovering Sonic Youth (around the time > of _Evol_) back in the eighties and having a really hard time > with their tunings until it sort of "clicked" for me and I've loved > them ever since. What about tracks featuring mellotrons (which > seem to be fundamentally incapable of maintaining consistent pitch) -- > can you listen to them?

I can't speak for Che, but it's pretty easy to tell when something is deliberately drifting out of tune and when something isn't *in* tune. There's a big difference between polytonal music (which is more than one key) and out of tune music. I can't imagine anyone listening to say "Confusion is Sex" and saying "Geez, I wish Thurston would tune up." Did anyone besides me sing in the choir in high school? Man, those damn sopranos were always dragging us down until we'd end a song a half step to a whole step flat! Arrgh! That was years ago and it still bothers me :)

quoted 5 lines I picked up a Silver Apples disc earlier this year which is really fascinating

> I picked up a Silver Apples disc earlier this year which is really fascinating > > stuff, but the homemade synths are all over the place tonally, and > now that you mention it I suppose the "queasiness" factor is > maybe one reason I don't play it more often.

I really never thought about it until now, but maybe that's why I couldn't stand that record. I guy I used to work with played that record all the time, and I'd always beg him to take it off... that thing was torture, but the most annoying record of them all (for me) is some E.A.R. record (that this guy also used to play) that had all of these super high pitched dog whistle synth sounds that made me feel like my head was going to explode. I couldn't even be in the store when he was playing that record. Arrgh, I'm getting a headache just thinking about it, of course that's a different thing entirely.

quoted 3 lines Me, I tend to prefer

> > Me, I tend to prefer > > 8 notes per key (out of 12) and no "non-integer" notes. Your mileage may > > vary, and that's cool. Just warn me in a review, ok?

I got into kooky just intonation stuff for a while, then I started listening to a lot of African and Indian music, and there's significantly more than 12 notes in those places :) I can listen to most of this stuff with no problem (I actually tried to play trombone in an awful microtonal thrash band band once, which featured me on trombone, an alto sax and an electric OUD player. It was fucking awful. I could also never play microtonally, anyway.. I just can't play the *right* note inbetween the "real" notes... even with the benefit of the slide. Too much of a mindfuck for me.) Sometimes I wish my ears weren't so westernized. Well, the bottom line to all of this for me is this: Out of tune samples can be really annoying. Out of tune keyboards can be equally annoying. Polytonal music can be quite good. Microtonal thrash bands with me in them always suck. Dog whistle sounds are one way to get me to leave a room. Tonality is much more of an issue (with me) with Jazz vocalists than it is with IDM records. .Bil. IAMaCOPIER

Morgan Geist - Etymon ep - First track on the info side. I've always thought it a bit odd that one note in the whole track is out of tune.. 16 bars after the last break.. on the second beat, hmmm. On a side note anyone know what the name of this track is? The way the info is layed out, I can't figure out wheter it's "Stream 01" or "cables". Cracker of a track btw. Cheers John