IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 21 lines yes:

>yes: > >-because people naturally like extremely complex things that we get lost >in...just look at mozart, glen gould etc... >-because music that is easy to make can often be used for the sole purpose >of making money, ie: Aqua, etc... >-because we can tell that a lot of blood sweat and tears went into making >the music, which is appreciated by the listener... > >no: > >-because all that matters is the final product, whether what you hear is >pleasurable. >-because very melodic music is not always that complicated but can still be >very emotional and touching >-because music is made for different reasons, either for intellectual >stimulus or to create an atmosphere, (ie: music for thinking or music for >feeling), and that should be taken into consideration. >-because the whole idea of judging music is redundant. > >Welp, let me know what you think..

It sounds like youve answered your own question! ;) all youll get now are variations of subjective opinion on an undying topic. maybe thats what you wanted tho? *shrug*? ernie Ernesto Ikerd, (817) 763-4795 Company Graphics, Dept 17 Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircaft Systems Fort Worth, Texas

greetings all, I was just contemplating something in my mind and thought it could start a nice little discussion. Also, I think it has a lot to do with why many of us like IDM. the question: should music be liked because of the difficulty of it's production? I feel like I've got a very warped ear when it comes to listening to music because, after starting to make music myself and knowing how it's done, I'm starting to like music that sounds like it was very hard to make. I don't have the objectivity that I used to have when I hadn't been making music myself, and I very much miss it. I still love simple music like Selected ambient Works 2 but I can't handle generic trance or any of that stuff. Basically, I'm a music snob. And now I'm trying to figure out whether or not it's justified. Should I judge music because of how hard it was to make? yes: -because people naturally like extremely complex things that we get lost in...just look at mozart, glen gould etc... -because music that is easy to make can often be used for the sole purpose of making money, ie: Aqua, etc... -because we can tell that a lot of blood sweat and tears went into making the music, which is appreciated by the listener... no: -because all that matters is the final product, whether what you hear is pleasurable. -because very melodic music is not always that complicated but can still be very emotional and touching -because music is made for different reasons, either for intellectual stimulus or to create an atmosphere, (ie: music for thinking or music for feeling), and that should be taken into consideration. -because the whole idea of judging music is redundant. Welp, let me know what you think.... take care!------>mIkE |_ |_ |_ |_ |_ The People Under the Stairs Mike Baugh + Adrienne Pan Calgary Alberta Canada be afraid... www.canuck.com/~crave/people.html

On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Mike Baugh wrote: | should music be liked because of the difficulty of it's production? I tend to the no side... ignoring the fruitlessness of attempting this kind of justification. You already feel one way or the other, get on with life. ;) | yes: | -because people naturally like extremely complex things that we get lost | in...just look at mozart, glen gould etc... and Aqua and Brian Eno, and, well, Bon Jovi....? Aphex's 'SAW II', which you mention yourself? IME it's not true. A lot of people are happy to listen to very simple music. Maybe not solely simple music, but yeah. | -because music that is easy to make can often be used for the sole purpose | of making money, ie: Aqua, etc... This just gets the big "whatever" response from me. Like, well, fair point, but simplicity is just a feature of music that sells. It doesn't mean that simple music has to be like commercial crap in any other respect. | -because we can tell that a lot of blood sweat and tears went into making | the music, which is appreciated by the listener... Yeah, but this doesn't mean the results are enjoyable, as you mention below. There're plenty of electronic releases that I think sound fully overworked. eg. 'Endtroducing' by DJ Shadow. I found that album completely lifeless and overwraught compared to earlier releases by him. | no: | -because all that matters is the final product, whether what you hear is | pleasurable. I identify with this one fully. I can enjoy ideas of music, and music, and the enjoyment of either isn't a question of whether it's difficult. Not saying I don't like some "difficult" music, but I don't think I like it because it is difficult. | -because very melodic music is not always that complicated but can still be | very emotional and touching Any kind of music can "still be" very emotional and touching. There is also an underlying thing about "difficult listening", which I hate, which is the call to keep pushing forward. I always think "to where? to what end?". Not to mention the whole thing of, for example, someone mistaking u-ziq's 'Lunatic Harness' for something progressive and adventurous. Actually the most classic example I can think of is Tricky. Throw in lots of roughly looped, sometimes distorted bits, and mutter away, and you're not doing something new, you're buying into very pretentious expectations of what it means to be experimental. There's my ramble. Now I should do some work before my boss fires me. :) Michael "You know what? I'll call him Jet Jaguar..." http://www.vuw.ac.nz/~michael/jj.html Site last updated 15/4/98

quoted 1 line should music be liked because of the difficulty of it's production?

>should music be liked because of the difficulty of it's production?

i don't think so. (i was just talking about this with someone else). i tend to like tracks that sound different. nothing is worse then getting a generic trance or d&b cd. i have so many of them it's hard to tell which one is which. the cds that get the most use by me tend to be the ones that stand out.

quoted 1 line I still love simple music like Selected ambient Works 2

> I still love simple music like Selected ambient Works 2

IMHO, SAW2 is anything but simple :) - maybe to make the cd was simple (i have No idea how it was made) but the end result isn't simple anyway... yes sometimes i'm in the mood for something extremely complex. other times i'm not, all depends what i'm looking for

quoted 1 line Basically, I'm a music snob.

>Basically, I'm a music snob.

Isn't that part of the secret IDM oath? being a music snob? :)

quoted 2 lines -because we can tell that a lot of blood sweat and tears went into making

>-because we can tell that a lot of blood sweat and tears went into making >the music, which is appreciated by the listener..

to me, the amount of work means nothing, or rather, very little. to explain my opinion, i'll have to go off topic, (i'll be quick) i like abstract art better than photo-realistic art. reasoning? i think photo-realistic art is a waste of time. why bother? just use a camera! :) i mean, should we all love Artist X because he spent YEARS painting a scene that looks as good as a camera? i don't think so, yea, he's a talented painter but come on! SOME abstract art on the other hand, can be made within an hour and sold for thousands. again, the ideas and end results are whats important to me. yea, yea i know music and art are different but i'm just trying to be clear (please remember this is my opinion :)

quoted 2 lines -because very melodic music is not always that complicated but can still be

>-because very melodic music is not always that complicated but can still be >very emotional and touching

very true! Another point. What woudl you say about a sound program called Raider. (I don't have the url at this time, email me and i can get it for you) Anyway if you aren't familar w/ the program, allow me to explain. It searches your hard drive for .wav files and plays them all, at different speeds, tones, channels, etc. everytime you run the program its random, the computer does all the work. you just listen. the results are sometimes not so good, but most of the time, it sounds CRAZY. has to be one of the coolest noise programs i have. heeh - some of the tapes i recorded of this make me jealous that a machine can do something so easily (WHY AM I WASTING MY TIME) :) my point: the tape sounds good, although its not something i created, and it was simple to make. yet....its very complex at times. - and i didn't do a darn thing. :) anyway i blabbed enough have fun Keith Reinert | ICQ# 4485538 | keith@iamlost.com <http://www.iamlost.com/keith> | pgp dss public key avail.

Mike Baugh wrote:

quoted 13 lines greetings all,

> greetings all, > > I was just contemplating something in my mind and thought it could start a > nice little discussion. Also, I think it has a lot to do with why many of us > like IDM. the question: > > should music be liked because of the difficulty of it's production? > > I feel like I've got a very warped ear when it comes to listening to music > because, after starting to make music myself and knowing how it's done, I'm > starting to like music that sounds like it was very hard to make. I don't > have the objectivity that I used to have when I hadn't been making music > myself, and I very much miss it.

that's the very reason I'm hesitant to really try to make music, for fear of over analyzing music I've loved and somehow tarnishing or ruining my perceptions of it (not that it doesn't happen now but I feel it would happen alot more as I do the same with alot of visual arts-I'm a graphic artist) It's wierd, it's like being floored by Star Wars at the movie theater and then watching the "making of.." after..you just can't watch it the same way again-it tarnishes my experience, even though I find it interesting, and I'm not sure if I want that naivety or sense of wonder taken away from music for me anyway, and I just end up getting bitchy and alot more critical and even more selective..if that makes any sense...

quoted 6 lines I still love simple music like Selected

> I still love simple music like Selected > ambient Works 2 but I can't handle generic trance or any of that stuff. > Basically, I'm a music snob. And now I'm trying to figure out whether or not > it's justified. Should I judge music because of how hard it was to make? > >

I'd have to go with you're "no" reasons I think...

quoted 8 lines no:

> > > no: > > -because all that matters is the final product, whether what you hear is > pleasurable. > -because very melodic music is not always that complicated but can still be > very emotional and touching

quoted 3 lines -because music is made for different reasons, either for intellectual

> -because music is made for different reasons, either for intellectual > stimulus or to create an atmosphere, (ie: music for thinking or music for > feeling), and that should be taken into consideration.

I think the above is the best reason...... spaul np:Die Warzau-jackhammer rmx

I think it doesn't really matter why or how you like music. If you appreciate something because of its inherent beauty, or the way it makes you feel, that's fine. If you appreciate something because you understand the difficulties involved in making, that's fine too! There are many reasons to like many different things. There are many IDM artists who I feel can be appreciated for both of those reasons. (ie: TJ and RDJ, just to name the two most obvious ones) bbn