IDM Mailing Archive

So I have been sitting here over the past few days reading posts about the good old days and intelligent vs. unintelligent. I think it is time for some perspective. I think a major reason people are having such a hard time with the music of today is that they have fallen into the trap of listening to what is the most available and accessible. Of course the stuff that is easy to find is going to be influenced by drum and bass because drum and bass sells. Things that don't sell well are hard to find. Why? because stores won't order them. Simple economics. Also, you have to look beyond labels you have heard of. Sure warp is putting out some good stuff. Sure skam is putting out some good stuff. But the ground breaking material isn't on those labels. Check out a-musik, suction and rastermusic for example. These labels put out some weird stuff but they also put out some incredible dense melodic music. You also, have to look beyond this label of IDM. Some of the better releases can be found in genres like industrial and house. Check out glassgow underground. Sure it is house but it is jazzy and all around wonderful. But most people wouldn't know that because it has a house beat. And in this intelligent world that kind of beat can't be good. If I would have stayed in my little crafted IDM world I would never have found download, shinjuku thief, UI, surgeon and the whole basic channel thing (among others). The intelligence debate: to quote jeff mills: "there is no such thing as bad music. Point blank. There is no record the whole world would agree this is shit" That should cover that. Lastly, what is all this nonsense of peole using /// and symbols in their emails? Because vvm does it do people think it is the in thing to do? part of being clever is finding your own voice. I know I will get flamed for all this but after 1 weeks of emails that embodied the above I could handle no more. -daniel

On Sunday, 28-Jun-98, daniel wrote [about (idm) back in my day...]:

quoted 3 lines you have heard of. Sure warp is putting out some good stuff. Sure skam

>you have heard of. Sure warp is putting out some good stuff. Sure skam >is putting out some good stuff. But the ground breaking material isn't on >those labels. Check out a-musik, suction and rastermusic for example.

I highly disagree. Warp's AI comps were the shit, are the shit, and will remain THEE shit until the end of time. granted warp hasn't had many groundbreaking releases lately. Unless you call the weird microphone-hiss amplified and distorted which is MC: Pin Skeeling groundbreaking. It may be, I don't know. I don't think so though.

quoted 2 lines of IDM. Some of the better releases can be found in genres like

>of IDM. Some of the better releases can be found in genres like >industrial and house. Check out glassgow underground. Sure it is house

I disagree.. There are some great releases in the house dept.. and some may be better, worse who knows.. but I certainly wouldn't generalise that out of house vs. IDM house wins.. no way in hell.. but there is house that does rock.. The track "sensual enjoyments" on Sven Vath's new album I consider damn well brilliant, for example.

quoted 3 lines but it is jazzy and all around wonderful. But most people wouldn't know

>but it is jazzy and all around wonderful. But most people wouldn't know >that because it has a house beat. And in this intelligent world that kind >of beat can't be good. If I would have stayed in my little crafted IDM

not true. Quite a lot of Aphex stuff has a house beat.. it may be somewhat experimental, but it has a house beat.. SAW85-92 is pure house.. and Boards of Canada? a lot of the stuff therre is pure trip-hop.. just because it's put out by Skam don't get confused.. and it's wonderful stuff, and is IDM. but a lot of it is pure triphop, and I don't see anyone here holding that against it. and Mike Ink: Paroles? If that's not house I dunno what is. .auddplte <-- classic braindance music-> :P (the new CBM list? ;) __ __\ \ / /_\ \ 1cQ<->uIN \_____/ 1.3777993 "..in whatever you do, if you can't break new ground, what's the point?" - James Cameron

quoted 10 lines On Sunday, 28-Jun-98, daniel wrote [about (idm) back in my day...]:

> On Sunday, 28-Jun-98, daniel wrote [about (idm) back in my day...]: > >you have heard of. Sure warp is putting out some good stuff. Sure skam > >is putting out some good stuff. But the ground breaking material isn't on > >those labels. Check out a-musik, suction and rastermusic for example. > > I highly disagree. Warp's AI comps were the shit, are the shit, and will > remain THEE shit until the end of time. granted warp hasn't had many > groundbreaking releases lately. Unless you call the weird microphone-hiss > amplified and distorted which is MC: Pin Skeeling groundbreaking. It may be, > I don't know. I don't think so though.

I think that the point was is that, as of late, Warp hasn't been groundbreaking... one of favorite Warp releases (sort of recent) was the Phoenecia, but when it comes down to it, it's nothing new. Great release, still the same, simply wasn't really the point.

quoted 9 lines of IDM. Some of the better releases can be found in genres like

> > >of IDM. Some of the better releases can be found in genres like > >industrial and house. Check out glassgow underground. Sure it is house > > I disagree.. There are some great releases in the house dept.. and some may > be better, worse who knows.. but I certainly wouldn't generalise that out of > house vs. IDM house wins.. no way in hell.. but there is house that does > rock.. The track "sensual enjoyments" on Sven Vath's new album I consider > damn well brilliant, for example.

Again, I think the point was sort of missed... i don't think a generalizaion was being made that house is better than idm or that the genre has more releases that are better, i think that its just being pointed out that alot of people simply don't explore the other genres and thus miss quite a few great releases that happen to be labeled as house or industrial. I used to be into the industrial scene quite a bit til this aweful guitar sound took it over... but i'm damn glad i didn't miss download, scar tissue and it blew my mind when i first heard that not breathing was signed (especially blew my mind that invisble signed! hehehe small change of pace there =) Anyhow, if we look beyond what we normally label 'idm' (ie the skams, warps, etc) there's some great music that could probably hold up next to it nicely... Hell, the most recent material from the VVM camp (CV[ev]'s Chart Runners) definately finds itself far outside what we would deem 'idm' at moments.... Just my two cents.... btw - i hink all those / and \ look hella cool... course, i have too much time on my hands and hang out with six and seven year olds so.... ^brap@sonic.net^ [icq: 12645306] http://www.sonic.net/~brap/ [blackdog][v/vm][jamesbernarddiscography]...etc etc etc sfwd.dyn.ml.org [occasional web.irc.ftp.etc]]] chris g. 1547 boston court #7, santa rosa, ca 95405

On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, GamePrg. wrote:

quoted 6 lines I highly disagree. Warp's AI comps were the shit, are the shit, and will

> > I highly disagree. Warp's AI comps were the shit, are the shit, and will > remain THEE shit until the end of time. granted warp hasn't had many > groundbreaking releases lately. Unless you call the weird microphone-hiss > amplified and distorted which is MC: Pin Skeeling groundbreaking. It may be, > I don't know. I don't think so though.

I never said warp was a bad label. What I said is that there are labels right now who are doing things warp isn't and these labels have releases that are on par with those great AI comps. But, a lot of people miss these releases because they aren't on a known label. You have to look beyond the known labels.

quoted 10 lines of IDM. Some of the better releases can be found in genres like

> > >of IDM. Some of the better releases can be found in genres like > >industrial and house. Check out glassgow underground. Sure it is house > > I disagree.. There are some great releases in the house dept.. and some may > be better, worse who knows.. but I certainly wouldn't generalise that out of > house vs. IDM house wins.. no way in hell.. but there is house that does > rock.. The track "sensual enjoyments" on Sven Vath's new album I consider > damn well brilliant, for example. >

I never ever brought up house vs. idm. What I said was that people tend to label to much and totally miss out. When you look at music and say "I can't listen to that because that beat is unintelligent" you are closing your mind. There is bad house and there is bad idm. But to refuse to listen to house just because it is house is pretty ignorant. By the way you can subsitute any genre <industrial, country, rock etc> for house in the above statement.

quoted 7 lines not true. Quite a lot of Aphex stuff has a house beat.. it may be somewhat

> not true. Quite a lot of Aphex stuff has a house beat.. it may be somewhat > experimental, but it has a house beat.. SAW85-92 is pure house.. and Boards > of Canada? a lot of the stuff therre is pure trip-hop.. just because it's > put out by Skam don't get confused.. and it's wonderful stuff, and is IDM. > but a lot of it is pure triphop, and I don't see anyone here holding that > against it. >

this is not a house vs. idm thread. My point is that people close their mind and make rigid rules of what IDM is. They then follow those rules and if the music is outside of those rules they refuse to listen. These same people then complain IDM isn't any good now days. How many people on here have posted at one time or another that they won't listen to tracks with vocals? Think of all the music they have missed out upon because they won't listen to someone sing. Or what about those people who post that they won't listen to music with a guitar in it? Again they are missing out. A closed mind is never a good thing. -daniel

On Sunday, 28-Jun-98, daniel wrote [about Re: (idm) back in my day...]:

quoted 5 lines I never said warp was a bad label. What I said is that there are labels

>I never said warp was a bad label. What I said is that there are labels >right now who are doing things warp isn't and these labels have releases >that are on par with those great AI comps. But, a lot of people miss these >releases because they aren't on a known label. You have to look beyond >the known labels.

yeah, that's true.. but still I think the lesser known labels are not to be underestimated in their knownability :) like.. I think most of all idm labels have probably been discussed on this list.

quoted 7 lines I never ever brought up house vs. idm. What I said was that people tend

>I never ever brought up house vs. idm. What I said was that people tend >to label to much and totally miss out. When you look at music and say "I >can't listen to that because that beat is unintelligent" you are closing >your mind. There is bad house and there is bad idm. But to refuse to >listen to house just because it is house is pretty ignorant. By the way >you can subsitute any genre <industrial, country, rock etc> for house in >the above statement.

well.. generally house _is_ IMO unintelligent, and that's all house.. that doesn't mean it isn't any good.. I mean.. look at house, it's full of 4 bar loops of every kind.. and look at some IDM.. the melodies are longer, the drum beats more complex and individual.. it's simply a matter of music I think.. whereas house is only meant to be danced to.. not listened to, IDM is meant to be listened to, not danced to.. and vice versa.. and I think it's for this reason that people miss some of the key releases in the house, trance, etc. genres for this reason.. but again it's the unintelligent/intelligent thing, which I think just defines the type of music it is, not whether it's literally smarter or not. DJ Rap made a quote in Sonic Soul's retina saying something along the lines of "I dunno what intelligent music is, because i don't believe that I make stupid music." or something.. to me this is a bs statement.. because just because something is "intelligent" means that it's simply a different type of music.. this seems to be linked to ambient.. because somehow anything with the "intelligent" tag before it seems to be fused with ambient.. "intelligent" jungle, etc. that's the what it's all about IMO.. stuff like michael fakesch, the old AI comps (and IMO few, very few things today can even classify themselves as being as good as those comps), but the stuff is out there, and on the smaller labels, like daniel says.. I too had a high bias towards anything that is not IDM.. but just because something is good doesn't make it IDM imo.. that's adding to the reason why people keep on getting pissed when people call music "intelligent".

quoted 2 lines this is not a house vs. idm thread. My point is that people close their

>this is not a house vs. idm thread. My point is that people close their >mind and make rigid rules of what IDM is. They then follow those rules

I think IDM is a very _narrow_ type of music, and what I think may not be what other people think. but to me there's definite bounderies of what IDM is, and it's not about intelligence.. maybe it's about melody and music, as opposed to grooves, but.. not about who's smarter than who.

quoted 1 line and if the music is outside of those rules they refuse to listen. These

>and if the music is outside of those rules they refuse to listen. These

yes :)

quoted 3 lines same people then complain IDM isn't any good now days. How many people on

>same people then complain IDM isn't any good now days. How many people on >here have posted at one time or another that they won't listen to tracks >with vocals?

well.. I listen to tracks with vocals.. IMO everything deserves at least 2-4 listens.. but I must say that most of the tracks with vocals, as in lyrics, people singing have been totally lame.. some vocals I can get used to. When I first heard Richard's Hairpiece the vocals totally ruined the whole thing, but then after a few listens I got used to them, and now I love that track. but some things the vocals still ruin the track for me. Things like Jimi Tenor and The Gentle People rule of course, but I think that type of music, it's natural for there to be vocals (Lounge).. lenny kravitz, etc.. etc..

quoted 2 lines that they won't listen to music with a guitar in it? Again they are

>that they won't listen to music with a guitar in it? Again they are >missing out. A closed mind is never a good thing.

I have to say most tracks with any kinds of guitar sounds I've heard are lame.. BUT, a track by DJ Who on the cloudwatch cd uses some guitar sounds in it and it is absolutely fantastic.. and a closed mind isn't a good thing.. indeed a lot of people have a closed mind. i used to have one, but then by chance I started hearing some pretty cool stuff at clubs, etc.. in those genres.. lately i've been getting into some drum'n'bass as a result. __ __\ \ / /_\ \ 1cQ<->uIN \_____/ 1.3777993 "..in whatever you do, if you can't break new ground, what's the point?" - James Cameron

quoted 2 lines yeah, that's true.. but still I think the lesser known labels are not to

>yeah, that's true.. but still I think the lesser known labels are not to >be underestimated in their knownability :)

Exactly - if Suction and Schematic and Markant and Rastermusic and all these other labels are so "unknown," why do I have to delete so many posts about them?

quoted 1 line well.. generally house _is_ IMO unintelligent, and that's all house..

>well.. generally house _is_ IMO unintelligent, and that's all house..

And that's your loss...

quoted 3 lines that doesn't mean it isn't any good.. I mean.. look at house, it's full of

>that doesn't mean it isn't any good.. I mean.. look at house, it's full of >4 bar loops of every kind.. and look at some IDM.. the melodies are >longer, the drum beats more complex and individual..

This is a huge gross generalization that just doesn't hold up. A good house record (like the new Herbert disc I just got from Bent Crayon) is *less* repetitive and *more* complex and individual rhythmically than e.g. the Boards of Canada album everyone was blowing so much smoke about. Yes, the Herbert record's repetitive, but it's got a lot more variation within that repetition than BoC ever do.

quoted 2 lines whereas house is only meant to be danced to.. not listened to, IDM is

>whereas house is only meant to be danced to.. not listened to, IDM is >meant to be listened to, not danced to.. and vice versa..

Disagree. On both counts: oversimplifications that don't hold up in the face of intelligent house records and floor-friendly idm.

quoted 3 lines that's the what it's all about IMO.. stuff like michael fakesch, the old

>that's the what it's all about IMO.. stuff like michael fakesch, the old >AI comps (and IMO few, very few things today can even classify themselves >as being as good as those comps),

I think the canonization of the AI comps has gone far enough at this point. AI1 wasn't even the best IDM comp released in 1992 (Intergalactic Beats on Planet E gets the nod there), and AI2 is mostly an embarrassment. While 90% of everything is always shite, I'd say that for instance the last two volumes in the Freezone series (3 and 4 - haven't heard 5 yet) are every bit as good overall as AI2. We've definitely hit a dry spell lately as far as great albums go (with notable exceptions like the WHOMP-ASS~! Circadian Rhythms album), because most of the best artists have been quiet for a while (I'm talking about people like Global Communication, 4 Hero, Carl Craig as Paperclip People, Orbital, the Black Dog, and a Guy Called Gerald). Most of these people should have a new one out by year's end and I don't expect anything but greatness from any of them. (Well, the ex Deee-Lite vocals on the new Gerald worry me a bit...)

quoted 3 lines well.. I listen to tracks with vocals.. IMO everything deserves at least

>well.. I listen to tracks with vocals.. IMO everything deserves at least >2-4 listens.. but I must say that most of the tracks with vocals, as in >lyrics, people singing have been totally lame.

Disagree. Bjork's last album was one of my top three or four IDM records last year, and there are loads of other recent counterexamples (4 Hero "Loveless" and Chris Bowden/4 Hero "Hero," the vocal track on Planetary Folklore, etc.). Not to mention the new Massive Attack album which is just totally SWANK~! and has only one instrumental cut. (Melankolic - IDM 1998 label of the year easily IMO.) Oh, it's got heavy guitars on it too. You should love it.

quoted 2 lines and a closed mind isn't a good thing.. indeed a lot of people have a

>and a closed mind isn't a good thing.. indeed a lot of people have a >closed mind. i used to have one

Glad to see you don't anymore... C. -- Chris.Hilker (cspot@hyperreal.org) "What I don't understand," said Richard, "is what these people have against dictionaries. Maybe they don't even know they can't spell."

quoted 2 lines I have to say most tracks with any kinds of guitar sounds I've heard are

>I have to say most tracks with any kinds of guitar sounds I've heard are >lame..

LAME ?! No way, what about Joy Division, Frippatronics, Can, Sylvian, Ride, My Bloody Valentine, even some Sonic Youth, . . . For fucks sake, take a few listens to albums like 'Closer' , 'Tin Drum' or 'Loveless' , and what about Seefeel... they suck too ?! 'Quique' is to me one of those albums you listen all the time and never got bored. bye rob np: The Fall 'Free Range' 'Do you wanna be a beauty queen an rule the kingdom ?'

just to throw in my two cents...

quoted 3 lines the most available and accessible. Of course the stuff that is easy to

> the most available and accessible. Of course the stuff that is easy to > find is going to be influenced by drum and bass because drum and bass > sells.

does drum and bass really sell? i can't name a million selling dnb record off the top of my head. i wish drum and bass _was_ what was selling millions, and not puff daddy. of course, i think you mean compared to the usual sales/exposure of an IDM record--talvin singh's dnb stuff gets used as background mtv music while stuff on rephlex usually doesn't. however, in the overall scheme of things, dnb seems every bit as underground, or more appropriately, obscure a set as IDM. sure, the average kid these days can probably name goldie and roni size, but i personally think that's a _good_ thing for IDM, because the gaps aren't that huge.

quoted 1 line those labels. Check out a-musik, suction and rastermusic for example.

> those labels. Check out a-musik, suction and rastermusic for example.

i would, but i'd say i suffer from the same problem that most people do: the lack of exposure i have to this stuff means that it's tough for me to throw down 16 bucks on a record i haven't heard. the net has changed some of this, though...i got the boards of canada disc becuase of the samples on warpnet and a healthy dose of good recommendations by people on the net.

quoted 2 lines of beat can't be good. If I would have stayed in my little crafted IDM

> of beat can't be good. If I would have stayed in my little crafted IDM > world I would never have found download, shinjuku thief, UI, surgeon and

i wonder if anyone really stays in the idm world... it doesnt' occur to me as one you could get to without taking a winding road through other music. i'm sure this is an old thread, but i wonder what else this list listens to? in my collection, miles davis has an equal place with autechre who have an equal spot with portishead who have an equal place with public enemy and so on and on. oh, and i think you could get to UI through Uilab through stereolab, which is either a direct ally with IDM or through one more jump via tortoise. or something like that.

quoted 2 lines "there is no such thing as bad music. Point blank. There is no record the

> "there is no such thing as bad music. Point blank. There is no record the > whole world would agree this is shit"

i think there's bad music. but i'd always preface taht with "i think," because good and bad are always just that, opinions. and no one's opinion is law. it's the interaction of these opnions, the reasons why people find things good and bad, which make music and this list interesting. r-o-b

quoted 2 lines Lastly, what is all this nonsense of peole using /// and symbols in

>>Lastly, what is all this nonsense of peole using /// and symbols in >>their emails? Because vvm does it do people think it is the in thing to

do?

quoted 1 line part of being clever is finding your own voice.

>>part of being clever is finding your own voice.

what symbols /// i dont see any symbols. man,, i think U ought 2 relax buddy B-4 U go mental.

quoted 2 lines I know I will get flamed for all this but after 1 weeks of emails that

>>I know I will get flamed for all this but after 1 weeks of emails that >>mbodied the above I could handle no more.

there is always the "dont read it" option. seriously though, i hadn't noticed that many people using MY "unique, different and special" tecnique. my fave is the Mutli-slash: ///////// and so on. i was doing this like way B-4 i ever saw V/Vm do it, so there. i did it 1st...i did it 1st...i did it 1st so bla bla bla bla, bla bla. i wasn't even on this stankin list yet. B-sides i could piss just as many people off without using all the @)&^!%**@%!%**)% garb.

quoted 1 line btw - i hink all those / and \ look hella cool... course, i have too

>btw - i hink all those / and \ look hella cool... course, i have too

much time on

quoted 1 line my hands and hang out with six and seven year olds so....

>my hands and hang out with six and seven year olds so....

right on buddy!!! ////limited 2 1 co-P, rod _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]