IDM Mailing Archive

Does anyone else have this problem? When people ask me what music I listen to or make, and I say 'Intelligent Dance Music', they think I'm bragging. Mostly I excuse myself by saying I didn't choose the name. Well, if you ever tried to explain to a Spice Girls fan why idm is more intelligent than SG, you know why I say that. Maybe we could start calling it 'Intelligent Dumb Music' like someone here suggested... --==v^v^v==-- Mathias Verraes ET.phone.home@ThePentagon.com Demi-Sick (live triphop & drum'n'bass) http://www.biosys.net/demisick demisick@biosys.net --==v^v^v==--

On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:41:41 +0200, you wrote:

quoted 2 lines Does anyone else have this problem? When people ask me what music I listen to or

>Does anyone else have this problem? When people ask me what music I listen to or >make, and I say 'Intelligent Dance Music', they think I'm bragging.

If people ask me what sort of music I mostly listen to, then I'll usually describe it as "underground techno". It sounds less pretentious than "Intelligent Dance Music", but conveys the idea that it's nothing like commercial techno (although thankfully that sort of thing has merged into the club scene). I also listen to a lot of alternative/indie guitar stuff too -- ie, anything on 4AD, and I always have a problem trying to describe that to people. "Cocteau Twins? Throwing Muses? Scheer? Tanya Donelly? Never 'eard of 'em, mate." Hum-ho! /\/)ark http://www.sonance.demon.co.uk/

On Friday, 19-Jun-98, Mark Stevens wrote [about Re: (idm) The 'I' in 'IDM']:

quoted 1 line On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:41:41 +0200, you wrote:

>On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:41:41 +0200, you wrote:

quoted 1 line Does anyone else have this problem? When people ask me what music I listen

>>Does anyone else have this problem? When people ask me what music I listen

to

quoted 2 lines or

>or >>make, and I say 'Intelligent Dance Music', they think I'm bragging.

quoted 5 lines If people ask me what sort of music I mostly listen to, then I'll

>If people ask me what sort of music I mostly listen to, then I'll >usually describe it as "underground techno". It sounds less >pretentious than "Intelligent Dance Music", but conveys the idea that >it's nothing like commercial techno (although thankfully that sort of >thing has merged into the club scene).

I usually say "electronic music" or "electronic dance music" or "electronic listening/dance music".. coz IMHO IDM is inside that broad generalisation.. like I said before, I believe that IDM has become a genre.. a genre that house and some other stuff does not belong to.. but I also like house, trance (especially hard trance) and electro, etc.. hence saying "electronic dance music" __ __\ \ / /_\ \ 1cQ<->uIN \_____/ 1.3777993 "..in whatever you do, if you can't break new ground, what's the point?" - James Cameron

how about, non-dance electronic music, for those rave kids out there who can only relate any sort of techno to its rave correpsondent ie (listening to Music has right to children) "That's chillout music"... (what was i supposed to answer to that? "Err, well, technically, yes...")j-i-f

quoted 1 line Does anyone else have this problem? When people ask me what music I

> Does anyone else have this problem? When people ask me what music I

listen to or

quoted 1 line make, and I say 'Intelligent Dance Music', they think I'm bragging.

> make, and I say 'Intelligent Dance Music', they think I'm bragging.

Mostly I

quoted 1 line excuse myself by saying I didn't choose the name. Well, if you ever

> excuse myself by saying I didn't choose the name. Well, if you ever

tried to

quoted 1 line explain to a Spice Girls fan why idm is more intelligent than SG, you

> explain to a Spice Girls fan why idm is more intelligent than SG, you

know why I

quoted 1 line say that. Maybe we could start calling it 'Intelligent Dumb Music'

> say that. Maybe we could start calling it 'Intelligent Dumb Music'

like someone

quoted 1 line here suggested...

> here suggested...

how about a kind of parallel to progressive rock? prog rock listeners usually consider their music to be pushing the boundaries of rock, while we consider IDM to be pushing the boundaries of techno...so perhaps something along the lines of prog techno or progressive electronic music (PEM) would be a bit more descriptive (and wouldn't sound as uppety as "intelligent dance music" can sound to someone unfamiliar with the term) -brad

On Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 10:09:31AM -0600, Brad Berger wrote:

quoted 1 line how about a kind of parallel to progressive rock?

> how about a kind of parallel to progressive rock?

Oh yeah, *that'll* help. :-) -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists

On Friday, 19-Jun-98, jif wrote [about Re: (idm) The 'I' in 'IDM']:

quoted 1 line Oh yeah, *that'll* help. :-)

>> Oh yeah, *that'll* help. :-)

quoted 8 lines but then again, does idm not only exist on the internet, as a name for

>but then again, does idm not only exist on the internet, as a name for >this list? as little as four months ago it was not a GENRE yet >(actually, we were still trying to figure out what exactly this list was >about back then). please dont tell me of a record store with an idm >section... when somebody asks you what kind of music you listen to, why >not give electronic or techno as an answer and let the discussion get >you to divulge the essential details (i imagine the average SG fan knows >techno in terms of Prodigy et al.)

SG? anyway.. I think that IDM has become a genre thanks to this list..... (and maybe the help of modern music?) at least some friends of mine from Finland organise a bunch of raves in Oulu, Finland and on the flyers, like when one of them dj's an "IDM" set, it says IDM.. and he also calls it an idm set, spinning idm, etc. :) .a-dpl1llt1°³°°fsol.accelerator __ __\ \ / /_\ \ 1cQ<->uIN \_____/ 1.3777993 "..in whatever you do, if you can't break new ground, what's the point?" - James Cameron

quoted 1 line Oh yeah, *that'll* help. :-)

> Oh yeah, *that'll* help. :-)

but then again, does idm not only exist on the internet, as a name for this list? as little as four months ago it was not a GENRE yet (actually, we were still trying to figure out what exactly this list was about back then). please dont tell me of a record store with an idm section... when somebody asks you what kind of music you listen to, why not give electronic or techno as an answer and let the discussion get you to divulge the essential details (i imagine the average SG fan knows techno in terms of Prodigy et al.) jif

On 19 Jun 98, jif wrote re: Re: (idm) The 'I' in 'IDM':

quoted 2 lines [...four months ago] (actually, we were still trying to figure

> [...four months ago] (actually, we were still trying to figure > out what exactly this list was about back then).

"WE" were? :-) Yes, I, too cringe at the explanation of IDM. Induced Dream Meandering. Inebriated Drug Merchants. Isolated Drum Mutations I *

actually, ModernMusic has a section entitled "Ambient / IDM" on their web page (www.ModernMusic.com), but i don't know if this extends into their actual store or not... -brad

On Friday, 19-Jun-98, Brad Berger wrote [about Re: (idm) The 'I' in 'IDM']:

quoted 3 lines actually, ModernMusic has a section entitled "Ambient / IDM" on their

> actually, ModernMusic has a section entitled "Ambient / IDM" on their > web page (www.ModernMusic.com), but i don't know if this extends into > their actual store or not...

it does.. their mailorder location stocks ambient/idm releases.. IDM being stuff like skam, markant, musik aus strom, warp, rephlex, etc. etc... (they also stock industrial).. while the other store stocks house, trance, jungle, etc. __ __\ \ / /_\ \ 1cQ<->uIN \_____/ 1.3777993 "..in whatever you do, if you can't break new ground, what's the point?" - James Cameron

Oh no... Does the term "progressive house" ring any bells? Face it... once the music gains the identity, for better or for worse you are stuck with it. Progressive rock meant pushing the boundaries, experimentation, _Can_, but it also meant excessively over-intectuallized, ponderous bull-shucks. Progressive house, something of the same thing (let's not forget it was esentially a techno derivative for those "in the know"). And then there was intelligent jungle, which basically once again was those two things. The thing is pretentious or not, you can't help the value judgment that's going to be attached to the music. Just stick with IDM. If someone gives you attitude, that's their problem. If because you listen to or create IDM _you_ have an attitude, that's your problem. No matter how you try to purge a word of its connotations, semantic connections will creep forward that were never originally intended. After all, "juvenile delinquent" and "mentally retarded" were terms originally coined to get rid of the values associated with the old terms, but they came to represent negative things anyway (as I'm sure you can tell if you were ever called a "retard" or a "jd" in grade school =). IDM is IDM, and hey, like another friend of mine said once, "What's wrong with being pretentious?" ;) Peace, K Rock-Ski ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: (idm) The 'I' in 'IDM' Author: idm-owner-Kreig.Zimmerman=thehartford.com@hyperreal.org at SMTP Date: 6/19/98 12:24 PM how about a kind of parallel to progressive rock? prog rock listeners usually consider their music to be pushing the boundaries of rock, while we consider IDM to be pushing the boundaries of techno...so perhaps something along the lines of prog techno or progressive electronic music (PEM) would be a bit more descriptive (and wouldn't sound as uppety as "intelligent dance music" can sound to someone unfamiliar with the term) -brad

what i meant was: i didn't really know if there was a sign actually denoting "IDM" inside the physical store...i'm curious to know if this is the case... at soundwaves here in houston, things are starting to finally get better separated (aside from everything being in "dance"), although it's more annoying, b/c say i'm looking for squarepusher...do i look under the general "techno/dance", or under "drum n' bass"? (lucky for me, soundwaves can't decide either, and stocks SP in both).......why do i fear that this is going to turn into a "why do we need different subgenres, it's all just music" thread that everything in alt.music.techno seems to sink into? -brad ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: (idm) The 'I' in 'IDM' Author: buh@clark.net at INTERNET Date: 6/19/98 3:15 PM On Friday, 19-Jun-98, Brad Berger wrote [about Re: (idm) The 'I' in 'IDM']:

quoted 3 lines actually, ModernMusic has a section entitled "Ambient / IDM" on their

> actually, ModernMusic has a section entitled "Ambient / IDM" on their > web page (www.ModernMusic.com), but i don't know if this extends into > their actual store or not...

it does.. their mailorder location stocks ambient/idm releases.. IDM being stuff like skam, markant, musik aus strom, warp, rephlex, etc. etc... (they also stock industrial).. while the other store stocks house, trance, jungle, etc. __ __\ \ / /_\ \ 1cQ<->uIN \_____/ 1.3777993 "..in whatever you do, if you can't break new ground, what's the point?" - James Cameron

quoted 1 line but I also like house, trance (especially hard trance)....

>but I also like house, trance (especially hard trance)....

I've always hated trance music. Almost everything that I've heard from this genre really annoyed me. So, that's probably because I've heard wrong artists/groups. Can someone recommend me few essential trance albums. MaybeI'll like em... but at this moment I cannot believe it. bye rob np: under compulsion / uriel

Champion that I. Unselfishly, of course. Think about it - we (in America -- I won't pretend to be able to speak for other cultures) live in one of the most rabidly anti-intellectual cultures conceivable. "Smart-guy" is largely considered an insult. In hip-hop 'schools', "stupid" was once "buttah." That the description of any music as intelligent should be looked upon strangely -- well, wear the strangeness. The music addressed here indeed is, for the most part, very intelligent, complex stuff, begging for abstraction. In short - watch a 'backstreet boys' video and consider the audience for that band, consider the ridiculous self-closeting of strict classical afficionados, and then consider that the description of this music as 'intelligent' may not only be apt, but in a certain way, quite necessary. sr -- sd

quoted 2 lines watch a 'backstreet boys' video and consider the audience for

>watch a 'backstreet boys' video and consider the audience for >that band

They're not stupid, just young... *Condescension will surely make things better*;-)... I go to a school for "smart" folks, and the breakdown of musical tastes almost completely mirrors the general population... In a grade of almost 200, I'm the only one who listens to IDM, we have a jungle obsessive, maybe 7 kids who are deep into "underground hiphop" (this is in NY, so it makes sense), a goth type, there are some others who listen to "underground/intellectual" stuff.... And then plenty who listen to Puffy, Spice Girls, "modern rock", Starship (strange but true). Maybe we have a slightly higher proportion of kids who listen to classical, and fewer ska punks (thank god), but no, smart has very little to do with musical tastes, except to the extent that you take the effort to turn off the radio and look for something else (which most people are smart enough to do, and few people do anyway). Stupid Sam

At 12:44 PM 6/19/98 -0400, someone wrote:

quoted 7 lines Oh yeah, *that'll* help. :-)

>> Oh yeah, *that'll* help. :-) > >but then again, does idm not only exist on the internet, as a name for >this list? as little as four months ago it was not a GENRE yet >(actually, we were still trying to figure out what exactly this list was >about back then). please dont tell me of a record store with an idm >section...

When I visited Synaptic Records in Denver, they had an IDM section... As for anyone that has a problem with the word intelligent, there's nothing wrong or pretentious about being intelligent. It beats the hell out of being stupid, though you do have to contend with average people trying to hammer you down like a nail that sticks up. Hence there tends to be a general uncomfortableness with the adjective. I only tell people I listen to Intelligent Dance Music if they have a good knowledge of dance music. Otherwise I just say I listen to weird electronic music from Europe. Most people don't seem to realize that there's more flavors of dance music than there are flavors of rock n'roll. Is "Intelligent Dance Music" an apt description? It is intelligent in that it engages the brain (though I think this has the unfortunate consequence of de-emphasizing the emotional aspects of the music). Not all of it is Dance Music, unless you're a Deadhead. ;-) I think Album Oriented Electronic Music might be more accurate, but IDM has a better ring to it than AOEM, don't you think? Che rock - rok (v.) - having a conventional and/or boring nature. ex: "Khakis rock". "That Rolling Stones show rocked". syn: suck.

On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Che wrote: | As for anyone that has a problem with the word intelligent, there's | nothing wrong or pretentious about being intelligent. In the past there have been a lot of instances where one little group of people has gone around saying what's intelligent and what isn't. I think that's what bugs me about it a bit. Like intelligent isn't funny, intelligent isn't black, intelligent isn't emotional, etc etc... None of these are explicit in the word "intelligent", but I often feel like that's how it's used. So, I reckon it definitely can be "pretentious", in the sense of people saying "it's better than being stupid", with the irony that they don't see how stupid they are being in their closemindedness. No, that's not referring to Che. Well, it might be, but not intentionally. :-) Jeez, this looks a bit moral-highground-y. In practice, I'm a big believer in definition coming from usage. So, it's like, who cares what it stands for - "IDM" means "the music we discuss on here"... Michael "You know what? I'll call him Jet Jaguar..." http://www.vuw.ac.nz/~michael/jj.html Site last updated 15/4/98

On 21 Jun 98, Che wrote re: Re: (idm) The 'I' in 'IDM' :

quoted 4 lines Is "Intelligent Dance Music" an apt description? It is

> Is "Intelligent Dance Music" an apt description? It is > intelligent in that it engages the brain (though I think this has > the unfortunate consequence of de-emphasizing the emotional > aspects of the music).

Exactly the conversation I was having at a party Saturday night, with a self-appointed turntable-hanger-arounder who explained in great detail that he ONLY liked music where he "could hear every instrument" (read "real" instrument - as opposed to anything electronic / thus "artificial"). I attempted to convey that it is indeed possible to produce an _emotional aspect_ in electronic music, which he waved off as cold and machine-made, thus clinical. This is the prejudiced and intolerant view of many who have grown up regarding rock and jazz (for instance) as the only true forms of acceptable music (by extrapolation because 'real instruments' are being played in real time by real people). I *

quoted 6 lines Is "Intelligent Dance Music" an apt description? It is intelligent in that

> Is "Intelligent Dance Music" an apt description? It is intelligent in that > it engages the brain (though I think this has the unfortunate consequence > of de-emphasizing the emotional aspects of the music). Not all of it is > Dance Music, unless you're a Deadhead. ;-) I think Album Oriented > Electronic Music might be more accurate, but IDM has a better ring to it > than AOEM, don't you think?

Heh, just an anecdote on this note... I pasted a bit of a post from this list to a friend on IRC... who immediately asked what IDM was. Having piqued his interest, I pointed him towards warprecords.co.uk for audio initiation... upon which receiving, his question was, "Do people actually dance to this?" After I explained, he was much releived, saying he thought he'd probably run far and fast if he saw people dancing in a way that reflected the sounds he was hearing. I think I won a convert, tho... - -- greyrose@nervosa.sf.ca.us http://www.extortion.com - -- "Scribble thoughts flowing freely from the mind, sing in good voice, keep the beat and, above all, accept a glass of wine when it is pressed upon you." - Yoshida Kenko, Essay in Idleness, 1340

quoted 3 lines r

> r > in definition coming from usage. So, it's like, who cares what it stands > for - "IDM" means "the music we discuss on here"...

well put. as long as the listmembers have a good idea of what is appropriate for discussion- the title, pretentious or not, doesnt have an effect what we post. (although asking the females on the list if they are good looking or not may be stretching the boundaries a bit) at this point idm seems to be pretty well developed, and even if it doesnt have the most accurate title, we know what its about and can still contribute. and as far as describing it to people "not in the know", i cant think of many genres that immediately come to mind if you use a one word description. if someone says they like jazz, that could literally mean one of dozens of styles, eras, etc. we dont have it harder than anyone else. cl

quoted 9 lines Champion that I. Unselfishly, of course.

> Champion that I. Unselfishly, of course. > Think about it - we (in America -- I won't pretend to be able to speak > for other cultures) live in one of the most rabidly anti-intellectual > cultures conceivable. "Smart-guy" is largely considered an insult. In > hip-hop 'schools', "stupid" was once "buttah." > That the description of any music as intelligent should be looked upon > strangely -- well, wear the strangeness. The music addressed here > indeed is, for the most part, very intelligent, complex stuff, begging > for abstraction.

The thing that's always bugged me about 'the I' is that the term "intelligence" is usually used to refer to IQ tests, a traditional tool of oppression and for the maintanance of racist, classist heirarchies. Besides, the reason why "smart-guy" is considered an insult is because if you are very smart, you have an advantage over most people and they understandably resent it. I was taught that smart people should not rub that fact into other people's faces and feel they are a different, higher class of person than those with average or less brains. I was taught that modesty was good and that snobbery was bad. I always thought that a smart person who did not see themselves as having something in common with a dumb person in some way was similar in many ways to a racist person. There's nothing wrong with being smart or being proud of experiencing your pleasures (i.e., music) in ways more mentally engaging ways than most people do, but it's another thing to publicly refer to yourself as intelligent and to infer that other people's cultural experiences are intellectually inferior. I consider myself pretty clever, but I don't see the point in purposefully separating people, and thus their arts, by intelligence levels. Yes we should fight anti-intellectualism, but I don't think intellectual snobbery is the proper weapon. Shouting "philistine!" and locking oneself in an ivory tower is a sure way to make sure that your 'high' culture will dry up and die. Personally, I like "underground techno" vs. IDM because it lets my less-hip friends know that a) It's vaguely like techno, which they're familiar with and b) It's probably more interesting and intellectually challenging than regular techno, but maybe not. Maybe if they know something more I'll drop "drum-n-bass" or "electro" (or even "hip hop", which, as hinted at in the above post, is suspiciously perceived as an anti-intellectual art form) on them and see how they react, but still with no pressure to live up to some IQ standard. Then, when they've finally heard it, they might have an open mind and can choose to like it or not without having to feel like their taste is any reflection on their intelligence. Some of the smartest people I know can't stand this stuff and love big dumb mid-80's acid house, and I'm glad because there's some fuckin great Anti-Intelligent Dance Music out there. -Cf ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - c h r i s t ø p h e r f ª h e y . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ chris@raremedium.com 2 1 2 - 6 3 4 - 6 9 5 0 x 2 5 8 http://www.raremedium.com - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - . _ . - ' ^ ' - .

On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:57:52 +0200, you wrote:

quoted 2 lines 'I' in IDM....let me see.... first of all I'm really sorry that Franz left

>'I' in IDM....let me see.... first of all I'm really sorry that Franz left >this list, hope he is OK...

i think possibly he will be back after a while

quoted 3 lines then I really miss [sm] , Steve /k/./F/ and

>then I really miss [sm] , Steve /k/./F/ and >Grant Horne posts...Lance didn't post for 3 days...Teep, are you whatching >us ? .... where is James BUTCHEr or Siliconvortex ?

well, i'm around if no-one else is. it's the weather, and a lack of big releases to blame for the low traffic. warp should put out an aphex album to give us something to chat about well, what have i heard recently? mask 4... pretty much drivel except for one great, great track which is probably gescom.. worth the price for that alone, one of the best tracks i've heard this year. wap 100... what a terrible disappointment. this seriously sounds like a collection of half-done demo tracks, the stuff they've picked up from the cutting room floor. faring relatively well are BOC and autechre, though their contributions are still below standard. the sqr/afx track is dreadfully boring. nightmares on wax return with a damp poorly produced squib of a track, plaid contribute the worst track i've ever heard them do, mark bell is stuck in the year 1994, and the rest all go through the motions. i can scarcely summon the energy to type anything about the two lone swordsmen's track. this is manufactured blandness that will undoubtedly get great reviews in the broadsheets. Warp, where is the PASSION? seems opinion is divided on the new autechre album.. it gets the thumbs up from me, i think it's their best yet. though the complex charms of the opening track wear away after time, there is still plenty of depth in there. standouts are fold4wrap5, under BOAC, arch carrier and drane2

quoted 2 lines shouldn't define what IDM is....like JAZZ... it's IDM and nothing more, the

>shouldn't define what IDM is....like JAZZ... it's IDM and nothing more, the >stuff we all here listen and love...and that is really what's all about....

but i still don't like the 'intelligent' tag. a better 'IDM' would be ill-ectronic dance music, or I Drink Meths <waves>

On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:11:51 -0400 "Christopher Fahey" <chris@raremedium.com> wrote:

quoted 3 lines The thing that's always bugged me about 'the I' is that the term

> The thing that's always bugged me about 'the I' is that the term >"intelligence" is usually used to refer to IQ tests, a traditional tool of >oppression and for the maintanance of racist, classist heirarchies.

That's probably the main reason of all this reluctancy to use the term intelligent referring to the music we love: America's dependacy on IQ tests to define intelligence. IQ test just TRY and measure a precise, definite type of intelligence: the logical/mathematical one. As modern psychology goes, there are many other form of intelligence: social/psychological, manual, creative (possibly the most important thing to turn a simple "smart guy" into a genius) and musical (yes, explicitly considered) among others. Having a high IQ has nothing to do with being able to manage more complex and difficult music. In fact, we all know that intelligence depends strongly on practice and passing your days reading tons of books in a totally silent library won't help you to develop your musical abilities at all! Just consider this: all the few IDM listeners I know are actually deep music lovers with a knowledge of music much higher than that of the average person. And you could probably say the same for any other listener of (really) alternative and "different" kinds of music. So I definitely stand for the I in IDM, because what we listen to IS (oftenly) rhythmically and (always) sonically more complex and brain-requiring than most other forms of music, that's all. Bye! Mauro "Upanisad" Longone upanisad@iol.it