IDM Mailing Archive

At 04:54 PM 10/30/97 -0700, you wrote:

quoted 17 lines At 05:34 PM 10/28/97 -0500, you wrote:

>At 05:34 PM 10/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >>In two weeks I will access to a CD burner. I am going to burn copies of >>my bootleg of Space & Chill Out >> >>and hopefully Ambiant Otaku. >> >> >>Interested in buying one? please reply. > >Interested in getting sued? Cause that's what'll happen IF you get caught. >Unless you've gotten permission from the artist/label to do so. I know of >people getting sued for mix tapes! and your going to be producing WHOLE >ALBUMS?! Since you've posted this on a mass media forum, chances are good >that someone (who may know the artist/label) will pass this information on >to the copyright holders. I'm not trying to play God here and tell you what >to do, but you just better be careful who you pass these lovely's on to. Or >reap the whirlwind.

I don't believe that IDM is what you call a "Mass Media Forum". I doubt too that any regular IDMer (meaning they don't own a record company, nor do they run legal matters) would get sued had there been so many close contacts to record companies and such. I know also that "Space" was out of print a long time ago and so is "Chill Out" (right? or is it still on Wax Trax!). I know you are just warning us, but c'mon lighten up. What the hell is the record company (which company actually did put out "Space" and "Chill Out"?) going to say when you call them and say "Hello. I'm making copies of a CD to send out to private parties for private listening and am not making any profit at all on them, and I would like to pay you roylaties. So tell me how much I owe you." What will the answer be Synaptic man? If one asked the artists themselves (I have actually done this, asked them if bootlegs were alright) they will usually say that it is fine. I guess it's all big business' problem, eh? BTW: Anybody want some copies of Autechre's "we r are why." and "are y are we," Before I dish out royalties to Warp? Please do not reply to me publically, or privately. Come to my house, bring a tape. Seriously, is there any problem with me making some .mp3's of this and storing them at a ftp site just for storage and telling a few people (IDM) where I am storing them? I'll just leave it at that, otherwise my mouth will get me into trouble. Cheers, Wankers! Rusty PS: I will be doing some storage really soon, I'll tell you all about it.

On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:22:59 -0600 Rusty Householter <aphex@mtco.com> writes:

quoted 73 lines At 04:54 PM 10/30/97 -0700, you wrote:

>At 04:54 PM 10/30/97 -0700, you wrote: >>At 05:34 PM 10/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >>>In two weeks I will access to a CD burner. I am going to burn >copies of >>>my bootleg of Space & Chill Out >>> >>>and hopefully Ambiant Otaku. >>> >>> >>>Interested in buying one? please reply. >> >>Interested in getting sued? Cause that's what'll happen IF you get >caught. >>Unless you've gotten permission from the artist/label to do so. I >know of >>people getting sued for mix tapes! and your going to be producing >WHOLE >>ALBUMS?! Since you've posted this on a mass media forum, chances are >good >>that someone (who may know the artist/label) will pass this >information on >>to the copyright holders. I'm not trying to play God here and tell >you what >>to do, but you just better be careful who you pass these lovely's on >to. Or >>reap the whirlwind. > >I don't believe that IDM is what you call a "Mass Media Forum". I >doubt >too that any regular IDMer (meaning they don't own a record company, >nor >do they run legal matters) would get sued had there been so many close >contacts to record companies and such. I know also that "Space" was >out of >print a long time ago and so is "Chill Out" (right? or is it still on >Wax >Trax!). I know you are just warning us, but c'mon lighten up. What >the >hell is the record company (which company actually did put out "Space" >and >"Chill Out"?) going to say when you call them and say "Hello. I'm >making >copies of a CD to send out to private parties for private listening >and am >not making any profit at all on them, and I would like to pay you >roylaties. So tell me how much I owe you." What will the answer be >Synaptic man? If one asked the artists themselves (I have actually >done >this, asked them if bootlegs were alright) they will usually say that >it is >fine. I guess it's all big business' problem, eh? > >BTW: Anybody want some copies of Autechre's "we r are why." and "are >y are >we," Before I dish out royalties to Warp? Please do not reply to me >publically, or privately. Come to my house, bring a tape. Seriously, >is >there any problem with me making some .mp3's of this and storing them >at a >ftp site just for storage and telling a few people (IDM) where I am >storing >them? I'll just leave it at that, otherwise my mouth will get me into >trouble. > > >Cheers, Wankers! > >Rusty > > >PS: I will be doing some storage really soon, I'll tell you all about >it. >

good answer...its kinda ironic that the only people really bitching about this are record store owners...who also sell audio tape....keep on dubbing i say... tom w np: king crimson - live in argentina 1994

quoted 5 lines good answer...its kinda ironic that the only people really bitching about

>good answer...its kinda ironic that the only people really bitching about >this are record store owners...who also sell audio tape....keep on >dubbing i say... > >tom w

We weren't bitching about what you're doing, just trying to inform you what can and will happen if you don't go through the proper procedures for what your doing. Second point: If you are re-producing music that is STILL in print you are cheating the artists and all those involved out of their due royalties. I (being a musician myself) get throughly pissed at you people for saturating the market with your bootlegs. Since electronic based musicians are not exactly selling millions of copies (except for a few artists) of their work, every penny counts. This is their living. They don't make a hell of a lot off of the sales of their work unless they own their own label or distribute it themselves. Labels tend to take the larger percentage of the profit from the sales. The bottom line is you're stealing something that you have no right to. This problem is only going to get bigger and bigger as the technology permits this type of theft. For all of you who are planning to make a career out of selling your music to the general public think again. BTW, we don't sell Audio Tape. Flame Away. b/e/n Synaptic Records (Rick and Ben) 608 S. Broadway Denver, CO 80209 (303) 722-9428 (phone) (303) 722-9540 (fax) synaptic@eazy.net www.eazy.net/synaptic-records/

quoted 4 lines stealing something that you have no right to. This problem is only going to

> stealing something that you have no right to. This problem is only going to > get bigger and bigger as the technology permits this type of theft. For all > of you who are planning to make a career out of selling your music to the > general public think again.

I seriously doubt anybody on this list would choose to buy a bootleg over the real thing. Tell me, when was the last time you saw a copy of Joyrex J4, 5, or 9 in your local chain record store? Or available through your local indie record store? Or available through a mail-order store? Or available through an auction? Or available through a bootleg? -- jr

At 02:12 PM 10/31/97 -0500, you wrote:

quoted 7 lines stealing something that you have no right to. This problem is only going to

>> stealing something that you have no right to. This problem is only going to >> get bigger and bigger as the technology permits this type of theft. For all >> of you who are planning to make a career out of selling your music to the >> general public think again. > >I seriously doubt anybody on this list would choose to buy a bootleg over >the real thing.

Exactly. Corporations hate bootleggers because they think they are competing with their markets. But when it's an Out-of-print recording bootleg you've created your own market since theirs doesn't exist anymore and that really peeves them off.

quoted 6 lines Tell me, when was the last time you saw a copy of Joyrex J4, 5, or 9 in your

>Tell me, when was the last time you saw a copy of Joyrex J4, 5, or 9 in your >local chain record store? >Or available through your local indie record store? >Or available through a mail-order store? >Or available through an auction? >Or available through a bootleg?

Never. Still (legally) waiting for it to get repressed onto CD. Rusty

At 10:05 AM 10/31/97 -0700, you wrote:

quoted 6 lines We weren't bitching about what you're doing, just trying to inform you what

>We weren't bitching about what you're doing, just trying to inform you what >can and will happen if you don't go through the proper procedures for what >your doing. Second point: If you are re-producing music that is STILL in >print you are cheating the artists and all those involved out of their due >royalties. I (being a musician myself) get throughly pissed at you people >for saturating the market with your bootlegs. Since electronic based

Yet, the amount of money lost on bootlegs is uncountable. Nobody knows how much is made. I believe that the record industry has made artificially outrageous values on what they perceive as losses for bootleg recordings. Tell me how much you have lost on bootlegs (being a musician)? I think it is all perpetuated by some corporate people to scare people from making bootlegs. What have they lost? Do bootlegs really compete with actual recordings?

quoted 2 lines musicians are not exactly selling millions of copies (except for a few

>musicians are not exactly selling millions of copies (except for a few >artists) of their work, every penny counts. This is their living. They

Sure, give me their address and I'll personally send them money.

quoted 4 lines don't make a hell of a lot off of the sales of their work unless they own

>don't make a hell of a lot off of the sales of their work unless they own >their own label or distribute it themselves. Labels tend to take the larger >percentage of the profit from the sales. The bottom line is you're >stealing something that you have no right to. This problem is only going to

Agreed. Artists do get ripped off by their record companies, much more than those "Evil" people who bootleg live and out-of-print recordings.

quoted 3 lines get bigger and bigger as the technology permits this type of theft. For all

>get bigger and bigger as the technology permits this type of theft. For all >of you who are planning to make a career out of selling your music to the >general public think again.

Don't diss technology. True, one day (it's already happening) everyone and their grandma will be able to make exact copies of their favorite toons, bleeps, and noises. I don't think that anything will hinder this becoming a reality, even copyrights.

quoted 1 line BTW, we don't sell Audio Tape.

>BTW, we don't sell Audio Tape.

Not a profitable business, eh? Rusty

quoted 2 lines percentage of the profit from the sales. The bottom line is you're

>percentage of the profit from the sales. The bottom line is you're >stealing something that you have no right to. This problem is only

going to heh... when do you ever have the right to steal? seriously, though, if it's in print, go buy it. out of print? how else can i hear if not through a boot or something? speaking of which, is there any way anyone can direct me to a copy of that aphex rarities tape? thanks, alan! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

quoted 3 lines heh... when do you ever have the right to steal? seriously, though, if

>heh... when do you ever have the right to steal? seriously, though, if >it's in print, go buy it. out of print? how else can i hear if not >through a boot or something?

What makes you think you have an innate right to hear a given recording? You're just rationalizing an illegal and unethical practice. ("I want that new Mercedes, but it's too expensive. How else can I own it, if I don't steal it?") C. -- Chris.Hilker (cspot@hyperreal.org) "Sex is the darndest nougat murder, something something e-mail something something la la la la beable beable trousers and dingaling nougat..."

quoted 1 line What makes you think you have an innate right to hear a given recording?

>What makes you think you have an innate right to hear a given recording?

Because it exists.

quoted 1 line You're just rationalizing an illegal and unethical practice.

>You're just rationalizing an illegal and unethical practice.

Who's ethics are we talking about? Are you a church going lad?

quoted 2 lines ("I want that new Mercedes, but it's too expensive. How else can I own it,

>("I want that new Mercedes, but it's too expensive. How else can I own it, >if I don't steal it?")

Or have someone make an exact copy of one and give it to me. Fuck man. Don't you think Pepsi and Coke taste the same? Couldn't a large corporation come up with a new artist's name and change the packaging but redistribute music from another artist, just like Pepsi and Coke. Maybe you should attack other regions of this anti-copy pursuit you are on, because I'm pretty damn sure that the money made on Cola is way bigger than that made on a really limited edition "Space" recording? Maybe the guy who invented cola should be collecting it all. Yes, I do know that there are copyright laws that protect that now. But who really gauges the losses made on bootlegs and things. You can't! I just learned that in Economics. Underground markets are untrackable! Theirfor everything Microsoft, Sony Music, etc. tells you about Bootlegs is false! I'll personally send the KLF the $3 they would have made off of me getting a copy of "Space", saves the record copany production and overhead involved. However, I feel that they might just burn it on the millenium (hopefully the real millenium, Dec. 31, 2000) with another million pounds they have stashed away. Wank, Rusty

quoted 5 lines Yes, I do know that there are

>Yes, I do know that there are >copyright laws that protect that now. But who really gauges the losses >made on bootlegs and things. You can't! I just learned that in Economics. > Underground markets are untrackable! Theirfor everything Microsoft, Sony >Music, etc. tells you about Bootlegs is false!

If you owned a CDR copy of 'Ambiant Otaku,' would you be more or less likely to buy an Ambient World reissue of the same title? I don't need Microsoft or Sony to tell me what I can deduce for myself. Bootlegs like these dilute the market for legitimate rereleases. Obviously, it's impossible to gauge how much. Maybe all of the people who own those CDRs would eventually get around to buying the legitimate issue. Maybe half would. Either way, it means either less money going to the label, or slower cash flow. In case you haven't noticed, a lot of the marginal independent labels that specialize in idm are not exactly swimming in money (GPR had to suspend operations for a year or two, because they simply didn't have the money to release anything!). Simply put, bootlegs (especially ones like Ami Mukerjee proposes) undercut the ability of legitimate labels and artists to release music. C. P.S. "Theirfor?" -- Chris.Hilker (cspot@hyperreal.org) "Sex is the darndest nougat murder, something something e-mail something something la la la la beable beable trousers and dingaling nougat..."

On Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:40:10 -0800 "Chris.Hilker" <cspot@hyperreal.org> writes:

quoted 13 lines heh... when do you ever have the right to steal? seriously, though,

>>heh... when do you ever have the right to steal? seriously, though, >if >>it's in print, go buy it. out of print? how else can i hear if not >>through a boot or something? > >What makes you think you have an innate right to hear a given >recording? >You're just rationalizing an illegal and unethical practice. > >("I want that new Mercedes, but it's too expensive. How else can I own >it, >if I don't steal it?") >

but if i buy it, dont i have the right to copy it? tom w np: scarab - s/t

quoted 1 line What makes you think you have an innate right to hear a given

>What makes you think you have an innate right to hear a given

recording?

quoted 3 lines You're just rationalizing an illegal and unethical practice.

>You're just rationalizing an illegal and unethical practice. > >("I want that new Mercedes, but it's too expensive. How else can I own

it,

quoted 3 lines if I don't steal it?")

>if I don't steal it?") > >C.

okay... i'm sorry, but this comparison is simply *ridiculous*. what separates me from buying a mercedes benz? a)the fact that i think they're awful cars. i'd rather get a BMW if i'm spending that much. b)MONEY. i don't have it. you're right. it's too expensive. now... what separates me from buying, say, AFX hangable autobulb 2? money? not really. if i could find it in a store, i'd be willing to pay for it. no. what separates me from this and other releases that are ten times more rare is a supertiny print-run and subsequent deletion by the label. what are you trying to say? i don't "have the right" to hear the music cause i wasn't into it at the right time and i wasn't born in england and i didn't have a turntable? i'm having a really hard time biting my tongue here. what is the point of releasing music to the public if the public can't buy it. or if they can, they have to be part of some secret cult, the chosen few, blah blah blah. blech. if labels and artists want to limited runs, fine, but why not do unlimiteds too? same music, different package or autographed or whatever. "hmm... i think i'll release this one today... but only to fifty people." and then you expect people not to dub stuff? i bet a lot of people that are talking against this used to think it was fine to have copies on *tape* because hey, it's just a tape. but now, anyone can enjoy the quality of *CD*! that's just not right! we can't let people have music and good sound, now can we? man... get some better analogies or something. and go listent to your limited releases, since you the innate right to hear them. alan!steamed. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Here's my opinion (and it's just an opinion): If a label keeps their releases in print, like Submerge (who does an excellent job of repressing as necessary), then there's no need to bootleg their product- it's readily available. If a label wants to play games with releasing limited quantities of a record and then immediately deleting it (for whatever unfathomable reason), then fuck 'em - bootleg away. Che

If I were a big electronic artist, and I had out of print work that people were copying, I wouldn't mind a bit. Since it's out of print, I'm not really losing any money. They would only be spreading around my work more and more, which is not something bad at all. But if it IS still in print, there's no excuse for that. Like that other guy said before (sorry, don't remember who) you're taking away money from them, when they're trying to make a living. Sure if it was some super pop crap like Marylon Mason, or NIN, who cares. But not these artists, I can imagine that they need every last dime from thier earnings. If it's still in print, it's not right. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if some sneaky little weasel was nibbling away at your paycheck. Enough of this coke vs. pepsi crap. I think it's a built in intuition that every human being knows what's right from wrong. You people who are doing wrong, are only trying to justify your behavior so you can sleep better at night. If it's wrong, DON'T DO IT. You'll feel better doing the right thing. Fuck religion, this is the rules of life in any case. You don't have to be a christian to understand that, and you know it. Even though you may not like it, you know it's true. Trying to justify wrong things never never works, it's just like trying to convince yourself 1 + 1 = 3. Even though you can come up with a million stupid excuses for it, you still know as plain as day that it's just not true. I think that's one of the golden rules. Honestly, if people didn't intuitivly know right from wrong, we wouldn't have justice. and NO it's not something your parents teach you, you're born knowing it. Sorry for trailing off the path of IDM. -Aaron, Aphextw836@aol.com -http://members.aol.com/midibiost/damaged.htm |- \ |_ _| |_ _|/ _||_ _||- \ |__\/_ \ | \./ |=- |_- \|___| | | |_ / | | || \\ |__\| || |\ |=- -bitstream