179,854Messages
9,130Senders
30Years
342mboxes
Search · subject · body · from · to
Advanced search
reset

← archive index

Re: (idm) is it live, or is it a boring thread?

3 messages · 3 participants · spans 2 days · search this subject
◇ merged from 2 subjects: (idm) is it live, or is it a boring thread? · (idm) you have been found 'wanting'...
1997-09-30 00:56lwtcdi (idm) You have been found 'wanting'...
└─ 1997-10-01 04:49Alexander Reynolds (idm) is it live, or is it a boring thread?
1997-10-01 13:04Colin Cahill Re: (idm) is it live, or is it a boring thread?
expand allcollapse allclick any summary to toggle that message
1997-09-30 00:56lwtcdi> These artists, including my heros Autechre (and your > hero, Squarepusher), are quite li
From:
lwtcdi
To:
IDM
Cc:
Alexander Reynolds
Date:
Tue, 30 Sep 1997 01:56:05 +0100
Subject:
(idm) You have been found 'wanting'...
permalink · <34304E25.5261@lwtcdi.prestel.co.uk>
quoted 6 lines These artists, including my heros Autechre (and your> These artists, including my heros Autechre (and your > hero, Squarepusher), are quite literally thieves of the sonic variety. > There's no way around it, really. Just the nature of the technology > involved. Now you want to start to talk about why one thief is more > legitimate a thief than the other, a la bjoerk vs. cylob. That's fine > -- > but (lesson #2) these two are both stealing their sound from other > people.
Hmmm. Surely what constitutes 'stealing' a sound is hearing it and saying "I want that sound in my music". Now whether this sound comes from a trumpet, synth, sampler or full on orchestra matters little. If you 'play' an instrument nowadays you are largely reliant on former techniques because the possible techniques of playing such an instrument have (mostly) already been explored. Thus in most cases 'new' music with such an instrument constitutes fusion - placing the instrument in an unusual context - which is basically what Squarepusher does so well. In my mind Autechre are not really fusion because their sound cannot easily be broken down into individual influences which can traced back to older forms of music (or at least not by me). Some have said electro - but to me Autechre's sound seems to have little to do with any electro I've heard. Squarepusher's sound on the other hand can be easily broken down - the breaks are from jungle, so is the sampled bass, the live bass from funk, the synths (although harder to pin down) could be said to be from a lot of IDM and techno stuff including RDJ's stuff and there are plenty of more blatant samples in there too. When was the last time you heard a direct sample from someone elses record on one of Autechre's recordings (Gescom's 'Snackwitch' is the only one I can easily recall). Autechre are less guilty of stealing a particular sound than someone who physically 'plays' an instrument because they select sounds for their records based on lots of different sounds they make. In other words they sculpt the sound. Playing a 'real' instrument involves sound manipulation, but essentially the sound has already been defined. Having said this, both techniques are still a matter of "I like that sound therefore I will use it in my music". Surely what really makes the difference is how much exposure the sampled or stolen sound has already had (whether it be a part of music - ie the Amen break - or a musical form itself - ie acid/house/traditional jazz whatever). If a lot of artists make similar sounding music for a period of time surely you will become bored more quickly with this sound than hearing more 'original' artists put out similar LPs every few years. It's all about saturation. I didn't buy the last Mu-Ziq LP because his sound (for me) had reached saturation point. For the same reason I haven't bought a lot new techno or house lately because I have a stack of similar (and often better) records already. Anyone for a pay per view Chris Jeffs/Bjork cage match? Place your bets please... Gb.
1997-10-01 04:49Alexander ReynoldsOn Tue, 30 Sep 1997, lwtcdi wrote: > Hmmm. Surely what constitutes 'stealing' a sound is h
From:
Alexander Reynolds
To:
Cc:
IDM
Date:
Wed, 01 Oct 1997 00:49:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
(idm) is it live, or is it a boring thread?
Reply to:
(idm) You have been found 'wanting'...
permalink · <Pine.SGI.3.95.970930130125.6256A-100000@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>
On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, lwtcdi wrote:
quoted 3 lines Hmmm. Surely what constitutes 'stealing' a sound is hearing it and> Hmmm. Surely what constitutes 'stealing' a sound is hearing it and > saying "I want that sound in my music". Now whether this sound comes > from a trumpet, synth, sampler or full on orchestra matters little.
I think there are musicians who play live instruments, particularly in the jazz and blues variety, who are *very* concerned about the introduction of sampled sound into music, in the interest of legitimacy. It's topical enough, considering there are idm artists who play live instruments some of the time. Why is so much time invested by electro music artists and engineers to copy sounds from real instruments? There must be some unanswered question of legitimacy that motivates them to do so...
quoted 5 lines If you 'play' an instrument nowadays you are largely reliant on former> If you 'play' an instrument nowadays you are largely reliant on former > techniques because the possible techniques of playing such an instrument > have (mostly) already been explored. Thus in most cases 'new' music with > such an instrument constitutes fusion - placing the instrument in an > unusual context - which is basically what Squarepusher does so well.
I could place a Calvin & Hobbes cartoon on a bumper sticker and put it on my car. Fusion of your sort. It's still copyright infringement because I'm not adding value to the piece. Squarepusher using an amen break with some bass lines thrown in is still copying. The value added -- essentially how pleasing the collusion is -- is a subjective evaluation. The "technique" is still plagiarism, on a level.
quoted 5 lines In my mind Autechre are not really fusion because their sound cannot> In my mind Autechre are not really fusion because their sound cannot > easily be broken down into individual influences which can traced back > to older forms of music (or at least not by me). Some have said electro > - but to me Autechre's sound seems to have little to do with any electro > I've heard.
Cage, Thaemlitz, Zoviet France, Coil -- they are all in the sound, at least to me. "Your mileage may vary." Ae's cool because you also hear machines in the mix: refrigerator compressors, capacitors charging up, white noise, etc. They are about as creative and original as hip-hop influenced electro noise can get.
quoted 7 lines Squarepusher's sound on the other hand can be easily broken> Squarepusher's sound on the other hand can be easily broken > down - the breaks are from jungle, so is the sampled bass, the live bass > from funk, the synths (although harder to pin down) could be said to be > from a lot of IDM and techno stuff including RDJ's stuff and there are > plenty of more blatant samples in there too. When was the last time you > heard a direct sample from someone elses record on one of Autechre's > recordings (Gescom's 'Snackwitch' is the only one I can easily recall).
I keep thinking 'basscadet' but I'll have to get back on that one.
quoted 5 lines Autechre are less guilty of stealing a particular sound than someone who> Autechre are less guilty of stealing a particular sound than someone who > physically 'plays' an instrument because they select sounds for their > records based on lots of different sounds they make. In other words they > sculpt the sound. Playing a 'real' instrument involves sound > manipulation, but essentially the sound has already been defined.
Robert Fripp sculpts his guitar chords, manipulating "delay and hazard," as he calls it, to generate his "soundscapes." But noone can say that the looped tape machine is an *instrument* in the sense that you mean it, i.e. by virtue of technique. You still need to input original source, a sample. To do so would mean to redefine what an instrument *is*. Instead of humans directtly controlling sound, you have machines doing it. Computers are dumb, i.e. not sentient or conscious enough to generate pleasing vibrating air, even to know what it *is*. In the case of the analogue tape machines Fripp was using, the machine is just reading data, not playing music. Picking nits maybe, but the details are important. (Rereading this, I realize the Theremin is a good exception as an electronic real instrument. I don't believe there are others, however. Feel free to educate me.) If you want to redefine what a musical instrument is, fine. But convention (and other musicians in the world, 99% of whom use non-electronic means to produce sound, and who will probably unionize against electronic and/or sampled music in the coming century) says otherwise. Being a peaceful anarchist you'll have no argument from me; however, I think a lot of people will line up to disagree with you. As with a lot of things, technology has hidden how sound is processed and sold to the public. There seems a misunderstanding that says that any box that spits out sound X qualifies as a real instrument.
quoted 4 lines Having said this, both techniques are still a matter of "I like that> Having said this, both techniques are still a matter of "I like that > sound therefore I will use it in my music". Surely what really makes the > difference is how much exposure the sampled or stolen sound has already > had (whether it be a part of music - ie the Amen break - or a musical
Tha's a good question: the 303 is prevalent throughout Surfing on Sine Waves, yet the music is pretty damn good, in spite of the unoriginal or overused sound. Theft can be beautiful. Bjoerk and Cylob and RDJ are beautiful criminals. Alex
1997-10-01 13:04Colin CahillThis entire debate seems pointless to me. Nearly every 'musician' copies another's music,
From:
Colin Cahill
To:
, Alexander Reynolds
Cc:
IDM
Date:
Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:04:05 -0400
Subject:
Re: (idm) is it live, or is it a boring thread?
permalink · <0000B5AD.@air-water.com>
This entire debate seems pointless to me. Nearly every 'musician' copies another's music, & technique. In jazz, you are taught to steal licks from old bird tunes, or miles, whoever. In rock, you try to absorb a certain riff, part of a solo etc... It is this assembly of all the various sounds that an individual appreciates that makes the individual's music. This is nothing new, nor is it specific to electronic music. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: (idm) is it live, or is it a boring thread? Author: Alexander Reynolds <polygon@jhu.edu> at AWT_INTERNET_PO Date: 10/1/97 12:49 AM On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, lwtcdi wrote:
quoted 3 lines Hmmm. Surely what constitutes 'stealing' a sound is hearing it and> Hmmm. Surely what constitutes 'stealing' a sound is hearing it and > saying "I want that sound in my music". Now whether this sound comes > from a trumpet, synth, sampler or full on orchestra matters little.
I think there are musicians who play live instruments, particularly in the jazz and blues variety, who are *very* concerned about the introduction of sampled sound into music, in the interest of legitimacy. It's topical enough, considering there are idm artists who play live instruments some of the time. Why is so much time invested by electro music artists and engineers to copy sounds from real instruments? There must be some unanswered question of legitimacy that motivates them to do so...
quoted 5 lines If you 'play' an instrument nowadays you are largely reliant on former> If you 'play' an instrument nowadays you are largely reliant on former > techniques because the possible techniques of playing such an instrument > have (mostly) already been explored. Thus in most cases 'new' music with > such an instrument constitutes fusion - placing the instrument in an > unusual context - which is basically what Squarepusher does so well.
I could place a Calvin & Hobbes cartoon on a bumper sticker and put it on my car. Fusion of your sort. It's still copyright infringement because I'm not adding value to the piece. Squarepusher using an amen break with some bass lines thrown in is still copying. The value added -- essentially how pleasing the collusion is -- is a subjective evaluation. The "technique" is still plagiarism, on a level.
quoted 5 lines In my mind Autechre are not really fusion because their sound cannot> In my mind Autechre are not really fusion because their sound cannot > easily be broken down into individual influences which can traced back > to older forms of music (or at least not by me). Some have said electro > - but to me Autechre's sound seems to have little to do with any electro > I've heard.
Cage, Thaemlitz, Zoviet France, Coil -- they are all in the sound, at least to me. "Your mileage may vary." Ae's cool because you also hear machines in the mix: refrigerator compressors, capacitors charging up, white noise, etc. They are about as creative and original as hip-hop influenced electro noise can get.
quoted 7 lines Squarepusher's sound on the other hand can be easily broken> Squarepusher's sound on the other hand can be easily broken > down - the breaks are from jungle, so is the sampled bass, the live bass > from funk, the synths (although harder to pin down) could be said to be > from a lot of IDM and techno stuff including RDJ's stuff and there are > plenty of more blatant samples in there too. When was the last time you > heard a direct sample from someone elses record on one of Autechre's > recordings (Gescom's 'Snackwitch' is the only one I can easily recall).
I keep thinking 'basscadet' but I'll have to get back on that one.
quoted 5 lines Autechre are less guilty of stealing a particular sound than someone who> Autechre are less guilty of stealing a particular sound than someone who > physically 'plays' an instrument because they select sounds for their > records based on lots of different sounds they make. In other words they > sculpt the sound. Playing a 'real' instrument involves sound > manipulation, but essentially the sound has already been defined.
Robert Fripp sculpts his guitar chords, manipulating "delay and hazard," as he calls it, to generate his "soundscapes." But noone can say that the looped tape machine is an *instrument* in the sense that you mean it, i.e. by virtue of technique. You still need to input original source, a sample. To do so would mean to redefine what an instrument *is*. Instead of humans directtly controlling sound, you have machines doing it. Computers are dumb, i.e. not sentient or conscious enough to generate pleasing vibrating air, even to know what it *is*. In the case of the analogue tape machines Fripp was using, the machine is just reading data, not playing music. Picking nits maybe, but the details are important. (Rereading this, I realize the Theremin is a good exception as an electronic real instrument. I don't believe there are others, however. Feel free to educate me.) If you want to redefine what a musical instrument is, fine. But convention (and other musicians in the world, 99% of whom use non-electronic means to produce sound, and who will probably unionize against electronic and/or sampled music in the coming century) says otherwise. Being a peaceful anarchist you'll have no argument from me; however, I think a lot of people will line up to disagree with you. As with a lot of things, technology has hidden how sound is processed and sold to the public. There seems a misunderstanding that says that any box that spits out sound X qualifies as a real instrument.
quoted 4 lines Having said this, both techniques are still a matter of "I like that> Having said this, both techniques are still a matter of "I like that > sound therefore I will use it in my music". Surely what really makes the > difference is how much exposure the sampled or stolen sound has already > had (whether it be a part of music - ie the Amen break - or a musical
Tha's a good question: the 303 is prevalent throughout Surfing on Sine Waves, yet the music is pretty damn good, in spite of the unoriginal or overused sound. Theft can be beautiful. Bjoerk and Cylob and RDJ are beautiful criminals. Alex