IDM Mailing Archive

OK, with this smallish turntable discussion going on, I though I would lend my hand at dispelling any misconceptions/questions about getting a turntable or vinyl in general. I am a 17 year old student/part time worker, just so you know. 1. "I can't afford a turntable!!" -Yes, you can. I work at a really crappy job, and I just saved to get my 1200 for a long time. And you don't even need a 1200. Get a Gemeni 1000. Decent price, decent preformance. Just save. 2. "Why do you guys love vinyl? CD's are so much better!" (not said, but I am sure was thought) - Vinyl is great because it's so much more *real* than a CD. Its big, its solid, it's *there*. You see it being played, you can see the grooves. You manipulate the playing manually. It has a distinctive sound to it. You can find it cheap. Lots of *great* stuff is only on vinyl. Vinyl has larger, better artwork on the packaging. On the other hand, CD's are so *cold*. I mean, I use them when I have to, yeah. But it's so technical, so false. You put it in a closed little area, and you don't know what the hell is going on in there. :) So thats my 2 cents and more. Thats why I dig vinyl, thats how I got my table. SKAM02 is worth my money alone. Really. Later, all. Stay mellow. Shane -- If you have ICQ, you can reach me by using this number: 2220289 Leave me a world wide page at http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2220289 GO GET ICQ NOW!!! http://www.mirabilis.com

quoted 8 lines - Vinyl is great because it's so much more *real* than a CD. Its

> - Vinyl is great because it's so much more *real* than a CD. Its >big, its solid, it's *there*. You see it being played, you can see the >grooves. You manipulate the playing manually. It has a distinctive sound >to it. You can find it cheap. Lots of *great* stuff is only on vinyl. >Vinyl has larger, better artwork on the packaging. On the other hand, >CD's are so *cold*. I mean, I use them when I have to, yeah. But it's so >technical, so false. You put it in a closed little area, and you don't >know what the hell is going on in there. :)

THE APHEX TWIN SUCKS! C. -- Chris.Hilker (cspot@hyperreal.org) "One being, that talking about things, while not exactly causing them to happen, does cause something,-- which is almost the same, tho' not quite. Unless it is possible to smoke a Potatoe."

quoted 10 lines - Vinyl is great because it's so much more *real* than a CD. Its

> > - Vinyl is great because it's so much more *real* than a CD. Its > >big, its solid, it's *there*. You see it being played, you can see the > >grooves. You manipulate the playing manually. It has a distinctive sound > >to it. You can find it cheap. Lots of *great* stuff is only on vinyl. > >Vinyl has larger, better artwork on the packaging. On the other hand, > >CD's are so *cold*. I mean, I use them when I have to, yeah. But it's so > >technical, so false. You put it in a closed little area, and you don't > >know what the hell is going on in there. :) > > THE APHEX TWIN SUCKS!

yeah, i thought it's supposed to be "intelligent" dance music? what's that supposed to mean?

I think he was comparing us to nazis. On Tue, 5 August 1997, at 21:19:25, john/bergmayer wrote:

quoted 6 lines THE APHEX TWIN SUCKS!

> > > > THE APHEX TWIN SUCKS! > > yeah, i thought it's supposed to be "intelligent" dance music? what's > that supposed to mean? >

quoted 5 lines 2. "Why do you guys love vinyl? CD's are so much better!" (not said, but

>2. "Why do you guys love vinyl? CD's are so much better!" (not said, but >I am sure was thought) > - Vinyl is great because it's so much more *real* than a CD. Its >big, its solid, it's *there*. You see it being played, you can see the >grooves.

Yeah. Big, bulky and difficult to transport or play anywhere except home are always good characteristics for a medium in my book! I love to load up my 6 12" record changer in my car with the latest IDM and try to figure out if what I'm listening to is what Autechre intended me to hear or the needle jumping around! I love to take my Sony 12" discman with me to school, it's great for listening to records in between classes! Ok, I'll stop being a dick now. I'll take the portability and playability of my cds over vinyl anyday. If I want the artwork big as day, I'll get a poster ... Let the war begin! Woo-hoo! markw@southwind.net

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, mark weddle wrote:

quoted 4 lines Ok, I'll stop being a dick now. I'll take the portability and playability of

> > Ok, I'll stop being a dick now. I'll take the portability and playability of > my cds over vinyl anyday. If I want the artwork big as day, I'll get a > poster ...

Have to say that portability has never been a reason for me to buy CDs (I buy both CD and vinyl, although my vinyl buying is a bit limited in Chile). I have no intention of ever buying a personal CD player just for some wanker to mug and run off with it and God know how many precious CDs (precious to me at least). If I want to listen to something out of the house I record it to tape and if something gets stolen or broken (accidents happen, I've seen enough horror stories on this list to convince me of this) all I lose is a blank and a worthless walkman (must be about 10 years old now).

quoted 6 lines Let the war begin! Woo-hoo!

> > Let the war begin! Woo-hoo! > > markw@southwind.net > >

bellic Tim Those who set out to serve both God and Mammon soon find there is no God.

john/bergmayer wrote:

quoted 9 lines -Yes, you can. I work at a really crappy job, and I just saved

> > -Yes, you can. I work at a really crappy job, and I just saved > to > > get my 1200 for a long time. And you don't even need a 1200. Get a > > Gemeni 1000. Decent price, decent preformance. Just save. > > come on. you can afford anything if you save long enough. have a > look at > my 401(k) plan. >

What is this? 400 bucks for a table is really different than, say, saving up for ahome or car.

quoted 11 lines CD's are so *cold*. I mean, I use them when I have to, yeah. But

> > CD's are so *cold*. I mean, I use them when I have to, yeah. But > it's so > > technical, so false. You put it in a closed little area, and you > don't > > know what the hell is going on in there. :) > > the most meaningless part of a consitantly meaningless argument. > people > like vinyl, for the same reason they like little cuddly wuzzy fuzz > bunnies. there is no reason. you're anthropomorphizing a recording > medium. records are no more human than cds.

OK. The reason I listen to music is to get that *feeling* you get when one listens to great music. Music is emotional. Music should be a presonal, interactive thing. Which is what vinyl is, so much more than CD's. There is not a more human quality, there isa more substancial quality to them. Also, it was mentioned somewhere else that records degrade with each use. Yeah, if you have a bad needle and scratch it up. Take care of things, man. Shane -- If you have ICQ, you can reach me by using this number: 2220289 Leave me a world wide page at http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2220289 GO GET ICQ NOW!!! http://www.mirabilis.com

the fact that some features of records are exploitable for music creation, or are cool in some neat little way, and that you can do all this irrelevant stuff with them, means nothing to my point: they are an inferior format for the playback of recorded music.

quoted 3 lines cd's, by the way, suffer from laser rot: a degradation which begins to

> cd's, by the way, suffer from laser rot: a degradation which begins to > become noticable after about 7 years. records are the only archival form > of sound storage. fact.

i have heard that cd-r's rot, but i have heard many times that cd's can last up to a century without degrading. unless you muss them all up, of course. the can rust from the inside if you scratch them right. fact: even if cd's do degrade, before they do you can just make a PERFECT copy and throw away the original. fact: you can't make a perfect copy of a record.

At 12:10 AM 8/6/97 -0400, you wrote:

quoted 5 lines the most meaningless part of a consitantly meaningless argument.

>> the most meaningless part of a consitantly meaningless argument. >> people >> like vinyl, for the same reason they like little cuddly wuzzy fuzz >> bunnies. there is no reason. you're anthropomorphizing a recording >> medium. records are no more human than cds.

Exactly, I think people are fooled because there vacuum tube preamps for there turntables warm up and they think "Oh man it has lights and it's hotter than hell, it's alive!"

quoted 5 lines OK. The reason I listen to music is to get that *feeling* you get when

>OK. The reason I listen to music is to get that *feeling* you get when >one listens to great music. Music is emotional. Music should be a >presonal, interactive thing. Which is what vinyl is, so much more than >CD's. There is not a more human quality, there isa more substancial >quality to them.

What is it? Do you like watching something spin? CD's spin but they are just smaller...maybe it's because vinyl spins slower...maybe its those pops...If you want the same experience put a cd in a cheap Discman and bump it and you get discrepancies!!!! How fun!!!

quoted 4 lines Also, it was mentioned somewhere else that records degrade with each

>Also, it was mentioned somewhere else that records degrade with each >use. >Yeah, if you have a bad needle and scratch it up. Take care of things, >man.

You also have to wear special gloves when handling you records so no body oil gets on them and you might want to play it in a dustless environment cause that builds up, whereas CD's have a better record of playing perfect everytime even if dust is on them. I mean the only way to settle this arguement is to look at this thing scientifically. Feed your vinyl into your sound card and record it using SoundForge and compare your results with a CD...you'll be amazed at the results...CD's have a better frequency range than vinyl. Also compare your Mini-discs after recording something...I looked at a tape I made on a Dolby 3 head tape deck and a minidisc and low an behold the tape won out. Mini-discs have been known to flatten out there wave forms at certain frequecies like all recorded media, it's just that there is a little lower than tapes. Any buyers into this heated debat? Rusty

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Rusty Householter wrote:

quoted 6 lines Also compare your

> Also compare your > Mini-discs after recording something...I looked at a tape I made on a Dolby > 3 head tape deck and a minidisc and low an behold the tape won out. > Mini-discs have been known to flatten out there wave forms at certain > frequecies like all recorded media, it's just that there is a little lower > than tapes.

Which ATRAC revision did the recorder use? Different revisions vary wildly in quality. ATRAC 1 (which the original equipment used) is really very bad. ATRAC 2 is better, but not great. ATRAC 3 is very good. Most audiophiles agree that ATRAC 4 sounds as good as DAT (blind tests, same DAC, etc). ATRAC 4.5 is somehow better than ATRAC 4, but not audibly. So unless your tests were done with the latest equipment, they're not valid. I suppose MiniDiscs would flatten the waveforms a little because of their compression which removes the frequencies we can't hear. While the waveforms may be a bit different, what you hear is the same (our ears and brains are far from perfect). I agree that a good tape deck does sound very good. But it's the degredation on playback that bothers me. And MiniDiscs still win out for portability and convenience. Oh, and I agree that esthetically, vinyl is much cooler. I too like watching it spin, the way you can understand and see exactly what's going on. I just love the image of a sharp needle scratching away at soft plastic, and the image of big blobs of dead skin, bacteria, and oils landing on it and getting in the way. It the end, though, it's the quality of the music and not the quality of the recording that counts. A little surface noise and some clicks and pops aren't going to stop me from enjoying it. -- Emanuel Borsboom -- Victoria B.C. Canada -- "complete with surface noise" [Home Page] http://zerius.com/manny/ [Java Synth] http://zerius.com/synth/ [Vocoder] http://zerius.com/vocoder/

Rusty Householter wrote:

quoted 8 lines OK. The reason I listen to music is to get that *feeling* you get when

>>OK. The reason I listen to music is to get that *feeling* you get when >>one listens to great music. Music is emotional. Music should be a >>presonal, interactive thing. Which is what vinyl is, so much more than >>CD's. There is not a more human quality, there isa more substancial >>quality to them. > >What is it? Do you like watching something spin? CD's spin but they are >just smaller...maybe it's because vinyl spins slower...maybe its those

And if you want visual, get yerself a Band & Olufsen CD player - very very cool design... at a price. The single CD unit I saw had the CD on a spindle in a glass-doored case - the heads cover only a small section of the spinning CD. The 5 CD player is a thin tower with 5 spindles - the reader is a a carriage that runs up/down the tower to the CD you want to play. CDs stay in place, reader moves. Vary narce! Many things can be made warm or human or interesting with good thoughtful design. Andrew --- We are driving on the Autobahn In front of us is a wide valley The sun is shining with glittering rays