179,854Messages
9,130Senders
30Years
342mboxes

← archive index

Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break

10 messages · 10 participants · spans 4 days · search this subject
◇ merged from 2 subjects: (idm) re: breakbeat & amen break · marching breaks (was re: (idm) re: breakbeat & amen break)
1997-07-03 00:59Christopher Fahey (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break
└─ 1997-07-03 17:53Nate Harrison [Digital Magician Inc] Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break
1997-07-03 04:41GD Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break
1997-07-04 00:51brian flanagan (DA7A7TH13F) Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break
└─ 1997-07-05 04:14grant horne Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break
└─ 1997-07-05 18:32H James Harkins marching breaks (was Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break)
├─ 1997-07-06 14:06Christopher Klausmeier Re: marching breaks (was Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break)
└─ 1997-07-07 06:00Oblique Hostility Re: marching breaks (was Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break)
1997-07-04 20:47Subconscious Geography Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break
1997-07-05 16:01Lazlo Nibble Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break
expand allcollapse allclick any summary to toggle that message
1997-07-03 00:59Christopher FaheyOn Wednesday, July 02, 1997 2:57 PM, Lazlo Nibble [SMTP:lazlo@swcp.com] wrote: > Probably
From:
Christopher Fahey
To:
'IDM'
Date:
Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:59:40 -0400
Subject:
(idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break
permalink · <01BC872E.32F120C0.chrisfahey@mindspring.com>
On Wednesday, July 02, 1997 2:57 PM, Lazlo Nibble [SMTP:lazlo@swcp.com] wrote:
quoted 2 lines Probably called a "breakbeat" because the break is the easiest place in a> Probably called a "breakbeat" because the break is the easiest place in a > song to got a clean, loopable sample from . . .
This makes a lot of sense. Although I think defining a breakbeat as a type of sample is pretty narrow. One can make a breakbeat on a drum machine or on a synth - it would be called a breakbeat still because it *sounds like* the kind of beat used in a break in a live song. Breakbeat - 1) a beat used in the break of a traditional instrumental song, often a drum solo. 2) a type of music constructed of beats sampled from the breaks of traditional instrumental songs 3) A type of music electronically constructed of beat patterns which are structured similarly to the drum patterns in the breaks of traditional instrumental songs. I really appreciate everyone's introducing me to the famous "amen" break. And thanks for all the URL's! It is intensely familiar and I'm sure it will haunt me every time I hear it used in some jungle song. Although, to be honest, many of the times people say (usually derisively) that it is used as a sample in a certain song I don't think it really is. The amen break, although pretty impressive, is something almost any decent drummer or drum-machine programmer could do in their sleep. It's just a funky beat, not something incredibly unique. In the case of squarepusher for example, his beats are so complex and with so little repetiotion that it seems impossible that his beats are samples. Claiming that d&b music is based on the amen break is like saying that hip hop is based on James Brown's Funky Drummer. It's obviously a very common, perhaps the most common sample, but it is not the foundation of all of it. -CF
1997-07-03 17:53Nate Harrison [Digital Magician Inc]With regard to all the talk of breaks, did someone mention the most important part, that b
From:
Nate Harrison [Digital Magician Inc]
To:
Christopher Fahey
Cc:
'IDM'
Date:
Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:53:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break
Reply to:
(idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break
permalink · <Pine.BSI.3.95.970703132734.5926A-100000@we1.web-elite.com>
With regard to all the talk of breaks, did someone mention the most important part, that being they come from jazz? Breaks are not necessarliy any drum loop strictly speaking. 'True' breaks are lifted off of old records (like the amen) in particluar jazz recordings. I'm holding in my hand a cool CD that I suggest some of you get ahold of if you are not into jazz music. It's a good intro to the vast genre and it's called "Blue Breakbeats" on Blue Note, the seminal jazz label. It's jazzy tunes with breaks from the late 60's early 70's. The liner notes (edited by me) read as follows: Breaks, samples, beats? You are now entering into the mysterious world of hip hop culture. Confused? Let's take the advice of Jimmy Castor's "Trcglodyte" and 'Go Back, Way Back"... New York mid-70's, and disco rules the mainstream clubs, four to the floor, syn drums and Rashing lights dragged the dance Floor screaming towards Saturday Night Fever culture, a scene that would all but exclude young urban blacks. In the block parties throughout Harlem, the Bronx end elsewhere however a whole new thing was being created. Mixing the streetfunk of the 70's and the downhome soul of the 60's with the grittiest disco tunes pioneering DJs like Cool Herc and Afrika Bambaattaa would use the breakdown part of these records - a drumbeat, a riff, even a word - and using two copies would extend them into a new rhythmic groove, using the turntable and stylus as their instruments. The new rhythm grooves were given vitality by scratching - the sound of the needle spinning backwards in the groove as the DJ realigned it. The records themselves were closely guarded secrets - their labels steamed off to protect their identity and exclusivity. As the new rhythmic loops developed in length so members of the audience would come forward to improvise raps over the beat and create a whole new music. If the drum machine - and particularly the Poland 808 - has revolutionised the rhythmic side of rap, the breaks remain a vital ingredient, moving from the familiar James Brown beats, screams and grunts, to the acid funky stylings of George Clinton and the entire P-funkadelic family which rule the floor today. Jan beats have been there since the beginning - the cowbells of Bob James' 'Mardi Gras" formed the groove for Cool J's "Rock the Bells" and Mantronix - but the new school has turned to jazz as the natural soundtrack for their more concious and aware raps. Acts like the UMC's (who recently looped Blue Mitchell's "Good Humour Man" for their smash "One To Grown On"), A Tribe Called Quest (who used bassist Ron Carter playing live on their last record). De La Soul, Dal tha' Funkee Homosapien, the UK's Young Disciples and Galliano, Black Sheep, Third Bass, Queen Latifah, Kid Frost (Gerard Wilson's "Viva Tirade" forms the backbone of his :La Paza"), Main Source, Public Enemy (Branford Marsalis appeared on their "Fight the Power" track) and the Jungle Brothers have pioneered a whole new form - jazz rap - by delving ever deeper into black music's history for the breaks. Gangstarr paid tribute to the source with their "Jau Thang" and took it to the charts - 'Omette Coleman, he was a soul man"... ...Inevitably Blue Note - the finest of them all - is a natural source, just as its tunes became a mainstay of the UK jazz dance scene. The finest in jazz is proud to present a collection of ever desirable tunes, both electric and acoustic, which have either been sampled, or are, in our view, on the hotlist. Get down to business, homies, and remember Bobby Bird's advice, It's got to be funky"... -Dean Rudland oh yeah, some Sqaurepusher tracks using the amen: off of Feed Me Weird Things: Tundra off of Hard Normal Daddy: Vic Acid off of Port Rhombus: Port Rhombus (I think Problem Child too, sometimes it's hard to tell with TJ!) off of DJ Food's "Refried Food" Scratch yer Hed (Square Pusher Mix) (one of the dopest amen tracks I've ever heard. Beautiful stuff.) peace all, Nate Harrison Digital Magician Inc. www.digimagician.com nate@digimagician.com 313.994.7316
1997-07-03 04:41GDChristopher Fahey wrote: > unique. In the case of squarepusher for example, his beats are
From:
GD
To:
IDM List
Date:
Wed, 02 Jul 1997 23:41:58 -0500
Subject:
Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break
permalink · <33BB2D96.CFDDC45E@worldnet.att.net>
Christopher Fahey wrote:
quoted 2 lines unique. In the case of squarepusher for example, his beats are so complex and> unique. In the case of squarepusher for example, his beats are so complex and > with so little repetiotion that it seems impossible that his beats are samples.
His beats are frequently made from samples, both sampled beats (listen to Alroy Road Tracks) and sampled drum sounds. It's just that he manipulates the samples to a great degree of detail.
quoted 3 lines Claiming that d&b music is based on the amen break is like saying that hip hop> Claiming that d&b music is based on the amen break is like saying that hip hop > is based on James Brown's Funky Drummer. It's obviously a very common, perhaps > the most common sample, but it is not the foundation of all of it.
The Amen break is pretty much essential to the genre, hardstep in particular. It may not have been used on the first jungle releases but it is a defining element, without a doubt. GD
1997-07-04 00:51brian flanagan (DA7A7TH13F)> amen break on a drum machine? i'll have to remember that one hmmm i agree with that, BUT
From:
brian flanagan (DA7A7TH13F)
To:
Date:
Fri, 04 Jul 1997 01:51:10 +0100
Subject:
Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break
permalink · <33BC48FE.7F96@moo.source.co.uk>
quoted 1 line amen break on a drum machine? i'll have to remember that one> amen break on a drum machine? i'll have to remember that one
hmmm i agree with that, BUT.....drum machines at high BPM sound awesome if you have enough patience to program something complex and lengthy..... isn't anyone SICK to the back teeth of this break yet?? it's gonna end up as bad as the dreaded "wooh! yeah!" and "funky drummer" break..there are more good loops out there...No U turn tried something a little different with their rock esque break with loadsa cymbal bizness but only panacea so far has had a stab at playing about with it... np-the buzz of my sampler overheating thru a phaser ;) brian F
1997-07-05 04:14grant horne>isn't anyone SICK to the back teeth of this break yet?? no way. drum'n'bass has finally p
From:
grant horne
To:
Date:
Fri, 04 Jul 1997 23:14:08 -0500
Subject:
Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break
Reply to:
Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break
permalink · <3.0.1.32.19970704231408.006b7ecc@delta.is.tcu.edu>
quoted 1 line isn't anyone SICK to the back teeth of this break yet??>isn't anyone SICK to the back teeth of this break yet??
no way. drum'n'bass has finally progressed to a point where producers are realizing the full potential of amen. the more experimental tech steppers are really pushing the amen break to the limit instead of mindlessly looping it and chopping it into simple eighths. i was really surprised to hear the lacklustre amen noodling performed by MBM and NIN for the perfect drug remixes. it seems to me that if one is stuck in a track that's going nowhere, you can just break out the amen as a backup. i was working on a track for six straight months that was going absolutely nowhere. out of curiousity, i fiddled with the amen break just to finish it. it totally killed the song, but at least i got it out of the way :) speaking of breaks, i'm real surprised that the same 12 or so breaks are still being used by producers. there's so much good, unused shit laying around in old jazz records that sounds manic when pitched to 165 or so. i've got a bank of a hundred or so - and i'm not even a serious musician by any means! surf rock breaks are the best cuz most of them are at jungle speed to begin with! and geordan drummond and i have both thought separately about sampling high school marching band drum lines. i attempted it once and it sounded terrible. here's to hoping that wishmountain produces a jungle record. grant.
1997-07-05 18:32H James HarkinsOn Fri, 4 Jul 1997, grant horne wrote: > and geordan drummond and i have both thought > se
From:
H James Harkins
To:
idm
Date:
Sat, 5 Jul 1997 14:32:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
marching breaks (was Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break)
Reply to:
Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break
permalink · <Pine.SOL.3.91.970705142626.18866C-100000@carr2.acpub.duke.edu>
On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, grant horne wrote:
quoted 3 lines and geordan drummond and i have both thought> and geordan drummond and i have both thought > separately about sampling high school marching band drum lines. i attempted > it once and it sounded terrible.
Is it because they were bad players, because you couldn't get a clean sample (free of audience noise), or because the timbres of the drums didn't work? The last 2 of these problems would be pretty much insurmountable, I think, but in the case of the first, have you thought of the Concord Blue Devils? Eight (or is it ten, can't remember) snare drummers playing a roll so precisely synchronized you can hear every individual stroke... there must be a use for that sound somewhere! Tiddly winks-- James, ex-band geek ________ \ / | Bee women: "What kind of corn soldiers are you?" H. James Harkins | Arthur: "Umm, oh, er, we're, uh, we're colonels." jharkins@acpub.duke.edu | \/ | - from "The Tick," now on Comedy Central, 6PM M-F "If we keep our attention focused on the present, we can be sure of one thing, namely that whatever we are attending to in this moment will change..." -- Jon Kabat-Zinn
1997-07-06 14:06Christopher KlausmeierHow about the remix of "Tighten Up" on YMO Hi-Tech/No Crime? Sounds vaguely marching-band-
From:
Christopher Klausmeier
To:
Date:
Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:06:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:
Re: marching breaks (was Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break)
Reply to:
marching breaks (was Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break)
permalink · <199707061406.JAA25404@biosci.cbs.umn.edu>
How about the remix of "Tighten Up" on YMO Hi-Tech/No Crime? Sounds vaguely marching-band-esque at times. BTW -- great CD! -- Chris
1997-07-07 06:00Oblique HostilityOn Sat, 5 Jul 1997, H James Harkins wrote: > On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, grant horne wrote: > > >
From:
Oblique Hostility
To:
H James Harkins
Cc:
idm
Date:
Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:00:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:
Re: marching breaks (was Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break)
Reply to:
marching breaks (was Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break)
permalink · <Pine.LNX.3.93.970707005645.20823B-100000@soli.inav.net>
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, H James Harkins wrote:
quoted 14 lines On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, grant horne wrote:> On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, grant horne wrote: > > > and geordan drummond and i have both thought > > separately about sampling high school marching band drum lines. i attempted > > it once and it sounded terrible. > > Is it because they were bad players, because you couldn't get a clean > sample (free of audience noise), or because the timbres of the drums > didn't work? The last 2 of these problems would be pretty much > insurmountable, I think, but in the case of the first, have you thought > of the Concord Blue Devils? Eight (or is it ten, can't remember) snare > drummers playing a roll so precisely synchronized you can hear every > individual stroke... there must be a use for that sound somewhere! >
You can often find High School and College Drum and Bugle corps records at the Goodwill in the 50 cent bin -- or I guarantee most college music libraries have a few of these. A little searching can turn up immaculately recorded marching brand breaks on CD. I heard from someone who was trying to write drum and bass breaks for marching bands to play. The drummers can handle it, but I imagine that the rest of the band's ludicrous lack of swing would get in the way of a really convincing job. Though I would so treasure the thought of Goldie directing a college marching band in a stirring rendition of "Inner City Life" --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Psyche manifests as psychic through something we call 'winding', because it twists, and puts things that were far apart next to each other, complicatedly, taffywise." -- winona on channel 78 Kent Williams kent@inav.net -- http://soli.inav.net/~kent
1997-07-04 20:47Subconscious GeographyAt 20:59 02/07/97 -0400, you wrote: >Breakbeat - 1) a beat used in the break of a traditio
From:
Subconscious Geography
To:
Date:
Fri, 04 Jul 1997 21:47:38 +0100
Subject:
Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break
permalink · <3.0.32.19970703072057.00836650@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 20:59 02/07/97 -0400, you wrote:
quoted 5 lines Breakbeat - 1) a beat used in the break of a traditional instrumental song,>Breakbeat - 1) a beat used in the break of a traditional instrumental song, >often a drum solo. 2) a type of music constructed of beats sampled from the >breaks of traditional instrumental songs 3) A type of music electronically >constructed of beat patterns which are structured similarly to the drum >patterns in the breaks of traditional instrumental songs.
and of course a 'break', as everyone knows, is simply a sampled hook - doesn't necessarily have to be a drumbeat..
quoted 1 line I really appreciate everyone's introducing me to the famous "amen" break.>I really appreciate everyone's introducing me to the famous "amen" break.
And
quoted 1 line thanks for all the URL's! It is intensely familiar and I'm sure it will>thanks for all the URL's! It is intensely familiar and I'm sure it will
haunt
quoted 1 line me every time I hear it used in some jungle song. Although, to be honest,>me every time I hear it used in some jungle song. Although, to be honest,
many
quoted 1 line of the times people say (usually derisively) that it is used as a sample>of the times people say (usually derisively) that it is used as a sample
in a
quoted 2 lines certain song I don't think it really is. The amen break, although pretty>certain song I don't think it really is. The amen break, although pretty >impressive, is something almost any decent drummer or drum-machine
programmer
quoted 1 line could do in their sleep.>could do in their sleep.
i look forward to your new breaks compilation then.. amen isn't used because of the rhythm, it's used because of the amazing production of the drum sound - try getting the *sound* and you'll be tearing your hair out.. amen break on a drum machine? i'll have to remember that one <chortle> cheerio! np - spymania allstars
1997-07-05 16:01Lazlo Nibble> speaking of breaks, i'm real surprised that the same 12 or so breaks are > still being u
From:
Lazlo Nibble
To:
Intelligent Dance Music
Date:
Sat, 5 Jul 1997 10:01:05 -0600 (MDT)
Subject:
Re: (idm) RE: Breakbeat & Amen Break
permalink · <199707051601.KAA17719@kitsune.swcp.com>
quoted 3 lines speaking of breaks, i'm real surprised that the same 12 or so breaks are> speaking of breaks, i'm real surprised that the same 12 or so breaks are > still being used by producers. there's so much good, unused shit laying > around in old jazz records that sounds manic when pitched to 165 or so.
I think there's still acres of territory to be explored in the world of bluegrass breaks. "Swamp Thing" barely dipped its toe in -- someone needs to push the idea through the wall of cheese . . . -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists