IDM Mailing Archive

1997-04-18 11:30baseheadjust a note on the dj shadow hype... while he may be an excellent eclectic+jazz dj, his tr

From:: basehead <basehead@zip1.ziplink.net>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:30:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:: (idm) ugh

just a note on the dj shadow hype... while he may be an excellent eclectic+jazz dj, his tracks are an utter joke. NO ONE who released that music should be able to put out an ALBUM, call it HIS, and get any money for it. His first LP is the equivalent of a mixtape, not of a producer of any weight or talent. It's merely spliced bits (mostly LONG BITS) of other songs, sometimes (usually) only 2-3 of them. it's called being a dj, folks, not a musician. i respect his work, but he himself has no merit to me as a producer.. im tired of people talking about how brilliant 'his' music is. not that it hasnt been going on in rap for years.. (us3 'cantaloop' was a 100% 100% 100%, the whole way through, other than the lyrics.. rip of herbie hancock 'cantaloupe island'.. i could go on for pages about all the rip-offs..). but still it's a disgrace to see him mentioned in an intelligent music forum when he is the member of the 'popular electronica' movement who is about the furthest from a musician i've ever heard. it's a disgrace really. flame if you wish, there's no denying it really *shrug* -dan

1997-04-18 15:22William D. VanLooSo basically you don't accept the idea of sampled-based busic as "real". What, pray tell,

From:: William D. VanLoo <wdvanloo@mtu.edu>
To:: basehead <basehead@zip1.ziplink.net>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:22:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) ugh
Reply to:: (idm) ugh

So basically you don't accept the idea of sampled-based busic as "real". What, pray tell, do you listen to, then? Since you're on IDM, that would lead me to believe you listen to the usual suspects - Autechre, Aphex, et al. Sorry to be the one to mention it, but they all use samples heavily. You also don't accept the "dj as artist" paradigm. Fair enough. You're definitely not the first, nor the last. It's just discouraging to read this in a time where a body of criticism is being built up, some good, some bad, and see that some listeners of electronic music don't even accept it as such (ie, "real" music). Oh well. Bill / dj marathon

quoted 23 lines while he may be an excellent eclectic+jazz dj, his tracks are an

> while he may be an excellent eclectic+jazz dj, his tracks are an > utter joke. NO ONE who released that music should be able to put > out an ALBUM, call it HIS, and get any money for it. His first LP > is the equivalent of a mixtape, not of a producer of any weight or > talent. It's merely spliced bits (mostly LONG BITS) of other songs, > sometimes (usually) only 2-3 of them. it's called being a dj, folks, > not a musician. i respect his work, but he himself has no merit > to me as a producer.. im tired of people talking about how brilliant > 'his' music is. not that it hasnt been going on in rap for years.. > (us3 'cantaloop' was a 100% 100% 100%, the whole way through, other > than the lyrics.. rip of herbie hancock 'cantaloupe island'.. i could > go on for pages about all the rip-offs..). > > but still it's a disgrace to see him mentioned in an intelligent > music forum when he is the member of the 'popular electronica' movement > who is about the furthest from a musician i've ever heard. > > it's a disgrace really. > flame if you wish, there's no denying it really *shrug* > > -dan > >

-- f u t u r e listening radio show - hosted by dj marathon t h u r s d a y 10pm-1am o n wmtu 91.9 fm e l e c t r o n i c m u s i c * w i t h * s o u l http://www.hu.mtu.edu/~wdvanloo/personal/

1997-04-18 20:11baseheadOn Fri, 18 Apr 1997, William D. VanLoo wrote: > So basically you don't accept the idea of

From:: basehead <basehead@zip1.ziplink.net>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:11:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) ugh
Reply to:: Re: (idm) ugh

On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, William D. VanLoo wrote:

quoted 1 line So basically you don't accept the idea of sampled-based busic as "real".

> So basically you don't accept the idea of sampled-based busic as "real".

i don't consider shadow sample-based music as you are referring to it.. he doesnt use samples to aid his creations, he lets them play and sits back while other people's hard work makes him famous.

quoted 5 lines You also don't accept the "dj as artist" paradigm. Fair enough. You're

> You also don't accept the "dj as artist" paradigm. Fair enough. You're > definitely not the first, nor the last. It's just discouraging to read > this in a time where a body of criticism is being built up, some good, > some bad, and see that some listeners of electronic music don't even > accept it as such (ie, "real" music).

i accept the dj-as-artist bit but not the dj-as-musician general rule that people (mostly dj's, who would've thought!) tend to stick to. as for the criticism, i think the scene at the moment deserves a good deal of it. respect -dan

1997-04-18 22:34Brett McCormickThe usual suspects? sillyness... On Fri, 18 April 1997, at 11:22:26, William D. VanLoo wro

From:: Brett McCormick <brett@speedy.speakeasy.org>
To:: William D. VanLoo <wdvanloo@mtu.edu>
Cc:: basehead <basehead@zip1.ziplink.net>, <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:34:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) ugh
Reply to:: Re: (idm) ugh

The usual suspects? sillyness... On Fri, 18 April 1997, at 11:22:26, William D. VanLoo wrote:

quoted 3 lines What, pray tell, do you listen to, then? Since you're on IDM, that would

> What, pray tell, do you listen to, then? Since you're on IDM, that would > lead me to believe you listen to the usual suspects - Autechre, Aphex, et > al. Sorry to be the one to mention it, but they all use samples heavily.

1997-04-18 19:44Styrolene vaT> but still it's a disgrace to see him mentioned in an intelligent > music forum when he i

From:: Styrolene vaT <kung.funk@virgin.net>
To:: basehead <basehead@zip1.ziplink.net>
Cc:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:44:59 -0700
Subject:: (idm) The Sun has got his hat on (was ugh)

quoted 3 lines but still it's a disgrace to see him mentioned in an intelligent

> but still it's a disgrace to see him mentioned in an intelligent > music forum when he is the member of the 'popular electronica' movement > who is about the furthest from a musician i've ever heard.

My my we do wear Rosy Spectacles dont we, what in the hell is the *Popular Electronica Movement*? Are you one of these people who sits around dreaming of Aphex Twin and Orbital and Autechre all sitting around eating cakes and drinking tea together?, discussing 'the sexual politics of electronica in the nineties' or perhaps the Alternative renegade faction *The Peoples Movement for Popular Electronica*...... When are you fools gonna drop the 'intelligent' tag it really wears so thin now. If we really need to start *discussing* the relevance/differentiation between DJ/Musician then this list is fucked. kF

1997-04-18 19:52baseheadOn Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Styrolene vaT wrote: > My my we do wear Rosy Spectacles dont we, what

From:: basehead <basehead@zip1.ziplink.net>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:52:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:: (idm) Re: The Sun has got his hat on (was ugh)
Reply to:: (idm) The Sun has got his hat on (was ugh)

On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Styrolene vaT wrote:

quoted 6 lines My my we do wear Rosy Spectacles dont we, what in the hell is the

> My my we do wear Rosy Spectacles dont we, what in the hell is the > *Popular Electronica Movement*? Are you one of these people who sits > around dreaming of Aphex Twin and Orbital and Autechre all sitting around > eating cakes and drinking tea together?, discussing 'the sexual politics > of electronica in the nineties' or perhaps the Alternative renegade > faction *The Peoples Movement for Popular Electronica*......

actually i dont listen to orbital, autechre, and only a slight bit of aphex twin. notice i put the 'popular electronica' in quotes.. as in it's the biggest hype these days. while i may not be into the aforementioned artists, i respect them a fuck of a lot more than i do dj shadow! i hear him mentioned in the same breath and while i'm not defensive of groups i dont enjoy too much, i still think it's rather sad. the thing you have to realize is that most people dont KNOW he doesnt write the music because most people have no clue at all what goes into the production of a track.

quoted 3 lines When are you fools gonna drop the 'intelligent' tag it really wears so thin

> When are you fools gonna drop the 'intelligent' tag it really wears so thin > now. If we really need to start *discussing* the relevance/differentiation > between DJ/Musician then this list is fucked.

it's a valid point both philosophically, musically, and in the end really, financially.. when do we draw the line between what is an original composition and what is stealing outright? if i sample an entire song and release it as my own record, adding a drumbeat.. is it my song? im hardly a fool, you just took the 'electronica' comment wrong -dan

1997-04-20 20:38Mark KolmarOn Fri, 18 Apr 1997, basehead wrote: > while i may not be into the aforementioned artists,

From:: Mark Kolmar <mkolmar@xnet.com>
To:: IDM List <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:38:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Re: The Sun has got his hat on (was ugh)
Reply to:: (idm) Re: The Sun has got his hat on (was ugh)

On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, basehead wrote:

quoted 6 lines while i may not be into the aforementioned artists, i respect them

> while i may not be into the aforementioned artists, i respect them > a fuck of a lot more than i do dj shadow! i hear him mentioned in the same > breath and while i'm not defensive of groups i dont enjoy too much, i > still think it's rather sad. the thing you have to realize is that most > people dont KNOW he doesnt write the music because most people have no > clue at all what goes into the production of a track.

As I'm not familiar enough with the original tracks from which DJ Shadow sampled, it's impossible for me to say with any certainty how long the "fragments" are, or to what degree they have been rearranged. Despite, or maybe because of this, the album is a very enjoyable listening experience for me. Still, I gotta take a closer look at the liner notes -- I don't recall lists of samples that were cleared, co-writing credits, or the like. I'd think someone would have sued if DJ Shadow's album does little more than reuse very large chunks of others' music. Even so, isn't collage a perfectly legitimate way to work? --Mark

1997-04-21 17:32Humanerr0r@aol.comIn a message dated 18/04/97 19:53:48, you write: > still think it's rather sad. the thing

From:: <Humanerr0r@aol.com>
To:: <idm@hyperreal.com>
Date:: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:32:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:: Re: (idm) Re: The Sun has got his hat on (was ugh)

In a message dated 18/04/97 19:53:48, you write:

quoted 3 lines still think it's rather sad. the thing you have to realize is that most

> still think it's rather sad. the thing you have to realize is that most > people dont KNOW he doesnt write the music because most people have no > clue at all what goes into the production of a track.

You have a point, in a WAY.. I know that as I hear more and more 'original' records and films and whatever that FSOL have took their material from, I inevitably respect them a little less. But it doesn't make the records FSOL make any worse, after all, the music hasn't changed at all, it's still good music. (Or at least I think it is, just to preempt the FSOL slaggers)

quoted 3 lines When are you fools gonna drop the 'intelligent' tag it really wears so

> > When are you fools gonna drop the 'intelligent' tag it really wears so > thin > > now. If we really need to start *discussing* the

relevance/differentiation

quoted 1 line between DJ/Musician then this list is fucked.

> > between DJ/Musician then this list is fucked.

quoted 3 lines it's a valid point both philosophically, musically, and in the end really,

> it's a valid point both philosophically, musically, and in the end really, > financially.. when do we draw the line between what is an original > composition and what is stealing outright?

You can't, and that's why it's a quite pointless pursuit to attack DJ Shadow because he 'steals' in a more blatant way than someone who was 'inspired' by other artists. I like quite a few DJ Shadow records (though the LP was disappointing for me) and what he does with other people's music is a great deal more original than some of the rent-a-phexes out there who just rip off other people's ideas badly. I mean, just look at the gatefold of Endtroducing - a picture of a lot of old records and bits and pieces lying about. This should tell you what DJ Shadow is about. And it is no less valid than any other form of musical expression. If you can accept where he's coming from, then what's the problem? I'm sure the guy himself has no pretensions about what he does, he just has a different way of going about things.

quoted 2 lines if i sample an entire song

> if i sample an entire song > and release it as my own record, adding a drumbeat.. is it my song?

It is your expression. Originality is something that only exists in Utopia, we all take and steal in everything we do, there's nothing wrong with it, what you should be concerned about is the quality of the execution, the feel of the music. If, at the end of the day you like the music, you shouldn't let something like that bother you. As long as the people involved get paid, of course.. :-) Cheerio! What's On The Economy Sound Burger? Atomavicesk - Bochum Welt

Re: (idm) Re: The Sun has got his hat on (was ugh)