IDM Mailing Archive

quoted 2 lines are you going to see Spring Heel Jack on the 16th? Or DJ Shadow

> are you going to see Spring Heel Jack on the 16th? Or DJ Shadow >on the 15th or April?

Anyone have tour dates and city listings for these two tours? I was not aware Shadow was touring.Please excuse if this info has already been posted. Thanks. James

On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, James Newton wrote:

quoted 6 lines Anyone have tour dates and city listings for these two tours? I was not

> Anyone have tour dates and city listings for these two tours? I was not > aware Shadow was touring.Please excuse if this info has already been > posted. > > Thanks. > James

He's gonna be in Chicago on April 13 (I'm pretty sure that's the date) with Jeru the Damaja supporting him. BTW, how can a DJ play any other way *but* "live" (as was mentioned in another message)? Unless you mean actually working the turntables himself rather than doing DAT-type stuff..... cya brian

quoted 5 lines He's gonna be in Chicago on April 13 (I'm pretty sure that's the date)

> He's gonna be in Chicago on April 13 (I'm pretty sure that's the date) > with Jeru the Damaja supporting him. BTW, how can a DJ play any other way > *but* "live" (as was mentioned in another message)? Unless you mean > actually working the turntables himself rather than doing DAT-type > stuff.....

Before he was just spinning tracks and showing his turntable mastery. Now he's doing live versions of tracks from the records. Here this should explain everything: Addicted To Noise staff writer Gil Kaufman reports: DJ Shadow will be taking a few members of his Solesides Records crew on the road when he starts his first-ever headlining U.S. tour on Sunday, March 30 in Vancouver. Shadow, considered one of the most innovative DJs/record producers of the late '90s, released Endtroducing...., his debut album, to thunderous critical acclaim late last year. Shadow will be co-headlining with Jeru the Damaja in a set that will find him re-creating some of the head-tripping songs from the awesome Endtroducing in the first half, followed by his mixing and scratching behind Solesides mates Lateef and Lyrics Born in the second half, whose equally trippy debut, Latryx (which includes several tracks produced by Shadow) will be released on the Solesides label in mid-March. On the California swing of the tour, the rappers will be joined by De La Soul. Plans call for local DJs/MCs to appear at most dates.

quoted 52 lines DJ Shadow &

> DJ Shadow & >Solesides Crew's Tour >Dates: > >March 30; Vancouver; >Richards > >March 31; Seattle, WA; Showbox > >April 1; Portland, OR; Laluna > >April 3; San Francisco, CA; Maritime Hall > >April 4; Los Angeles, CA; House of Blues > >April 5; Santa Barbara, CA; UC Santa Barbara > >April 6; San Diego, CA; 4th & B > >April 7; Phoenix, AZ; Ballroom > >April 9; Boulder, CO; Fox Theatre > >April 10; Lawrence, KS; Bottleneck > >April 11; Columbia, MO; Blue Note > >April 12; Minneapolis, MN; First Avenue > >April 13; Chicago, IL; Park West > >April 15; New Orleans, LA; House of Blues > >April 16; Atlanta, GA; Masquerade > >April 17; Cincinnati, OH; Bogarts > >April 18; Detroit, MI; Majestic > >April 19; Toronto; Opera House > >April 20; Montreal; Dome > >April 22; New York, NY; Tramps > >April 23; Boston, MA; Axis > >April 24; Philadelphia, PA; TBA > >April 25; Washington, D.C.; Capitol/930 Club > >April 26; Syracuse, NY; Syracuse Univ.

Who says I don't post info? Fuck that.... Peace out, G-Spot.

If you steal an entire song and release it as your own record, it could STILL be called original art even if it doesn't have anything at all added to it. Didn't the KLF do it to ABBA's Dancing Queen a long time ago? They just released it in it's entirety on a single... and got their asses sued. They don't call themselves the Kopyright Liberation Front for nothing you know. They were trying to bring attention to the stupidity of copyrights and to question the idea of originality. I think it's okay to do whatever you want, just so long as you don't claim to have done something you did not do. It's not like he calls himself "Composer Shadow". He's a DJ and playing other people's records in a cretive way is his art. Is Yo Yo Ma not an artist because he does not compose his own music? Why is a DJ different? Is a collage artist like Pablo Picasso, John Heartfeild, Terry Gilliam, Kurt Schwitters, or Hannah Hoch not really a creative person because they cut out magazine and newspaper photos? You are missing out with one of the most significant ideas of the EARLY 20th century, one which most civilized people should take for granted by now - that is that mass media has redefined the idea of what is original so much that it is practcally meaningless. Read "Art in the age of Mechnical Reproduction" (spoken of on the list before), a 50+ year old text which pretty much gave sampling legitimacy as an art form. Even the fogeys get this concept. Besides, to argue that an artist is bad because fans don't know how the music was made is really misguided. You shouldn't base your opinion on other people's problems - you might miss out on something important. -CF

quoted 50 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: idm-owner@hyperreal.com [SMTP:idm-owner@hyperreal.com] On Behalf > Of basehead > Sent: Friday, April 18, 1997 3:52 PM > To: idm@hyperreal.com > Subject: (idm) Re: The Sun has got his hat on (was ugh) > > > > On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Styrolene vaT wrote: > > > My my we do wear Rosy Spectacles dont we, what in the hell is the > > *Popular Electronica Movement*? Are you one of these people who sits > > around dreaming of Aphex Twin and Orbital and Autechre all sitting > around > > eating cakes and drinking tea together?, discussing 'the sexual > politics > > of electronica in the nineties' or perhaps the Alternative renegade > > faction *The Peoples Movement for Popular Electronica*...... > > actually i dont listen to orbital, autechre, and only a slight bit > of aphex twin. notice i put the 'popular electronica' in quotes.. as > in > it's the biggest hype these days. > > while i may not be into the aforementioned artists, i respect them > a fuck of a lot more than i do dj shadow! i hear him mentioned in the > same > breath and while i'm not defensive of groups i dont enjoy too much, i > still think it's rather sad. the thing you have to realize is that > most > people dont KNOW he doesnt write the music because most people have no > clue at all what goes into the production of a track. > > > When are you fools gonna drop the 'intelligent' tag it really wears > so thin > > now. If we really need to start *discussing* the > relevance/differentiation > > between DJ/Musician then this list is fucked. > > it's a valid point both philosophically, musically, and in the end > really, > financially.. when do we draw the line between what is an original > composition and what is stealing outright? if i sample an entire song > and release it as my own record, adding a drumbeat.. is it my song? > > im hardly a fool, you just took the 'electronica' comment wrong > > -dan >

Chris Fahey writes:

quoted 7 lines If you steal an entire song and release it as your own record,

> If you steal an entire song and release it as your own record, > it could STILL be called original art even if it doesn't have anything > at all added to it. Didn't the KLF do it to ABBA's Dancing Queen a long > time ago? They just released it in it's entirety on a single... and got > their asses sued. They don't call themselves the Kopyright Liberation > Front for nothing you know. They were trying to bring attention to the > stupidity of copyrights and to question the idea of originality.

oh dear dear dear.... first of all they weren't the klf then, they were the justified ancients of mumu (aka the jams). second, the song had large bits of abba in it but also had lots of original stuff. third, they weren't trying to prove anything at that point, they were just having fun with sampling and dance culture. trying to use the jams/klf to prove any point is like trying to nail jello. entertaining for a minute maybe, but ultimately futile.

quoted 2 lines Is Yo Yo Ma not an artist because

> Is Yo Yo Ma not an artist because > he does not compose his own music? Why is a DJ different?

it's only a problem if the dj claims to have written the music that he plays.

quoted 4 lines Besides, to argue that an artist is bad because fans don't know

> Besides, to argue that an artist is bad because fans don't know > how the music was made is really misguided. You shouldn't base your > opinion on other people's problems - you might miss out on something > important.

i'm not one to claim that artists should pay for their samples or even list them, but there's got to be a good faith effort to at least make something NEW out of what you appropriate. otherwise you're just doing "ice ice baby" again. and that would be bad. -- Jon Drukman jsd@gamespot.com SpotMedia Communications How the drunk and the maimed both are dragged forward out of the arena like a boneless Christ, one man under each arm, feet dragging, eyes on the aether. (David Foster Wallace/Infinite Jest)

Reply to: RE>>(idm) DJ Shadow

quoted 1 line Didn't the KLF do it to ABBA's Dancing Queen a long

> Didn't the KLF do it to ABBA's Dancing Queen a long

time ago? They just released it in it's entirety on a single... and got their asses sued. no they didn't actually - they sampled it and it appeared on their first album and they got sued and they had to pull all copies left in stores to bring the "fine" down.

quoted 1 line He's a DJ and playing other people's

> He's a DJ and playing other people's

records in a creative way is his art. i do, however, totally agree with this - djing is a definite artform imho and the turntable is nothing but another musical instrument - you should hear the scratch pickles to hear the most amazing use of turntables as musical instruments - their scratching (all 4 of them together) is just astounding (maybe you already have heard them?), iain

quoted 5 lines first of all they weren't the klf then, they were the justified

>first of all they weren't the klf then, they were the justified >ancients of mumu (aka the jams). second, the song had large bits of >abba in it but also had lots of original stuff. third, they weren't >trying to prove anything at that point, they were just having fun with >sampling and dance culture.

If there ever was one band that was making a point it was The KLF, in any of their many guises. Still working out what it was though. Maarten |-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-|-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-| Maarten D. Schermer slavlab@xs4all.nl http://www.xs4all.nl/~slavlab Ongoing record sale (dance, industrial, etc.) & homemade noises |-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-|-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-|

quoted 2 lines If there ever was one band that was making a point it was The KLF, in any of

> If there ever was one band that was making a point it was The KLF, in any of > their many guises. Still working out what it was though.

Also chalk up good ol' Negativland, who, as far as I can ascertain, were sent here for the sole purpose of showing how much of a sham copyrights really are. That is... the meaning of copyrights has been used, abused, and trampled over in the name of $$$ for the music machine that is known as Major Labels. I'd suggest their book "The Story of the Letter U, and the Numeral 2" for a good read on the subject. (title is something like that...) -- guyjr@ns.gt.ed.net | I.D.M.- That stage in sleeping when your feet are a.k.a., Guy Elden, Jr. | moving faster than your eyes.

C.F. wrote:

quoted 7 lines If you steal an entire song and release it as your own record,

> If you steal an entire song and release it as your own record, > it could STILL be called original art even if it doesn't have anything > at all added to it. Didn't the KLF do it to ABBA's Dancing Queen a long > time ago? They just released it in it's entirety on a single... and got > their asses sued. They don't call themselves the Kopyright Liberation > Front for nothing you know. They were trying to bring attention to the > stupidity of copyrights and to question the idea of originality.

Word up -- remember Sherrie Levine, hip visual artist from the '80s who rarely did anything more than take photographs of already famous photographs and paint "exact replicas" of modern "masterpieces?" It's all rather strange -- art used to be about "authenticity" (as *all* of the arguments concerning "real IDM" on the list serve to indicate) and "real meaning" -- but now the last recourse of testimonial to "authenticity" lies in the irreducible identity and singularity of the artist himself or herself -- his or her personality, which is seen as the guaranteeing agency backing up artworks with the referential authority they require in order to be recognized as "truly meaningful" objects. The main subject of art used to be "God." Now it's autobiography -- self as god. Hair snippets in an Aphex promo pack... Japanese collectors paying millions of yen for tissues that Lennon wiped his nose with...Jeff Koons injection-molding sculptures of he and Cicciolina in various copulative poses... All the competing *identities* on this list...why should we be immune from this cultural logic? It's a short distance from stepping on someone else's tastes to stepping on their "intellectual property rights" these days...I can't wait until people start suing one another for sampling samples of samples of samples.... what a wonderful drama all this "death of IDM" stuff has been - endearing as an ostentatiously "suicidal" teenager! One who grows up to be a world-famous artist, of course...at least for 15 minutes. just a few thoughts sr -- sd NP: DM 'ultra' (oh, and P.S. to those bothered a while back by my cluelessly hypothetical slagging off of Carl Cox - the 2nd deck has had his System 7 mixes in it for about a week now. I'm eating some crow, and loving every meaty beat of it.)

It's pretty wild. They have 4 *DJ's* at once, so actually about 8 turntable in effect at times. Like a jazz band, the ensemble is punctuated by solos.. But so much so that it's more like the soloists are punctuated by moments of ensemble-ness. Plus there's a crew of assistants packing and unpacking the vinyl for them so they can pay attention to violating the turntables. The Invisible Skratch Pikles deserve a pedestal. -CF

quoted 25 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: Brett McCormick [SMTP:brett@speedy.speakeasy.org] > Sent: Saturday, April 19, 1997 1:43 PM > To: Iain Newton > Cc: Chris Fahey; IDM > Subject: Re: (idm) DJ Shadow > > > woah. I'm not sure I've heard *4* tables scratching at once, but I > can only imagine... > > On , 18 April 1997, at 17:48:41, Iain Newton wrote: > > > i do, however, totally agree with this - djing is a definite artform > imho and > > the turntable is nothing but another musical instrument - you should > hear the > > scratch pickles to hear the most amazing use of turntables as > musical > > instruments - their scratching (all 4 of them together) is just > astounding > > (maybe you already have heard them?), > > > > iain > >

Reply to: RE>>(idm) DJ Shadow actually they only have 1 deck each not 2 so it's only 4 decks in total - unless my eyesight is playing tricks on me, of course iain -------------------------------------- Date: 4/21/97 11:17 AM To: Iain Newton From: Chris Fahey It's pretty wild. They have 4 *DJ's* at once, so actually about 8 turntable in effect at times. Like a jazz band, the ensemble is punctuated by solos.. But so much so that it's more like the soloists are punctuated by moments of ensemble-ness. Plus there's a crew of assistants packing and unpacking the vinyl for them so they can pay attention to violating the turntables. The Invisible Skratch Pikles deserve a pedestal. -CF

quoted 25 lines -----Original Message-----

> -----Original Message----- > From: Brett McCormick [SMTP:brett@speedy.speakeasy.org] > Sent: Saturday, April 19, 1997 1:43 PM > To: Iain Newton > Cc: Chris Fahey; IDM > Subject: Re: (idm) DJ Shadow > > > woah. I'm not sure I've heard *4* tables scratching at once, but I > can only imagine... > > On , 18 April 1997, at 17:48:41, Iain Newton wrote: > > > i do, however, totally agree with this - djing is a definite artform > imho and > > the turntable is nothing but another musical instrument - you should > hear the > > scratch pickles to hear the most amazing use of turntables as > musical > > instruments - their scratching (all 4 of them together) is just > astounding > > (maybe you already have heard them?), > > > > iain > >

In a message dated 97-05-29 15:18:31 EDT, you write: << i would think one could safetly say that a good many people who make the music which trent is now leeching off of did or do so for little more than the sake of expression or 'cos its "what they like to do" and ask/expect/try for little more than to earn a decent living through the music as the world doesnt exactally cater towards their types, where as trent reznor is merely cashing in on what the true artists are doing for no reason other than greed. >> Well if trent reznor is a leech then so is richard d james, luke vibert, booth and brown, ect.. i guess when richard d james decided to do a drum and bass track it was ok because its rdj, but if trent reznor decides to dabble in it he is a leech. The fact is every artist borrows out the ass, whether it be from your contempories or past artists. It's whether or not if the artist does so in his own voice and maybe with some degree of innovation or integrity. Reznor does so and so does vibert and rdj. Reznor does do his own sampling, but because he can afford to, he has others who also sample. wow. Instead of having a sample bank of 1000 sounds now he has 3000. Seems pretty smart to me. Ohh im sorry trent reznor isn't a "true artist", 98% of the stuff that appears on nin albums was created by him, but he isn't a "true artist". sometimes i just can't understand.

quoted 2 lines Well if trent reznor is a leech then so is richard d james, luke vibert,

> Well if trent reznor is a leech then so is richard d james, luke vibert, > booth and brown, ect..

"one of these things is not like the other ones...." :)

quoted 3 lines Reznor does do his

> Reznor does do his > own sampling, but because he can afford to, he has others who also sample. > wow.

It just seems ridiculous. Some people consider finding and creating samples and beats an artform in itself, DJ Shadow being an excellent example of this. When Shadow was on Metropolis last Jason Bentley told a story about how when Shadow was here last time he got up at 5am after djing all night so he could go to a swap meet to search the old records for beats. That is what I call devotion to ones art. Trent makes a mockery of it. I wonder if the bomb squad ever hired people to search for samples for them?

quoted 3 lines i guess when richard d james decided to do a drum

> i guess when richard d james decided to do a drum > and bass track it was ok because its rdj, but if trent reznor decides to > dabble in it he is a leech.

Basically yeah since richards been doing breakbeat tracks since 1990. The thought of trent making jungle makes some of us who truly love that music cringe. Mostly because trent reznor makes an idiot of himself with his ridiculous tortured soul posturing and his oh im so gloomy marketing gimmicks. I hate to see the music i'm into (aka plug) being associated with that and brought down to that level. oh well... _____ / ,-,_) /,_) (/ RESH Live & Direct from the G-Spot, Orange County, California, USA http://www1.linkonline.net/fresh/fresh.htm

quoted 37 lines Well if trent reznor is a leech then so is richard d james, luke vibert,

>> Well if trent reznor is a leech then so is richard d james, luke vibert, >> booth and brown, ect.. > >"one of these things is not like the other ones...." :) > >> Reznor does do his >> own sampling, but because he can afford to, he has others who also sample. >> wow. > >It just seems ridiculous. Some people consider finding and creating >samples and beats an artform in itself, DJ Shadow being an excellent >example of this. When Shadow was on Metropolis last Jason Bentley told a >story about how when Shadow was here last time he got up at 5am after >djing all night so he could go to a swap meet to search the old records >for beats. That is what I call devotion to ones art. Trent makes a >mockery of it. I wonder if the bomb squad ever hired people to search >for samples for them? > >> i guess when richard d james decided to do a drum >> and bass track it was ok because its rdj, but if trent reznor decides to >> dabble in it he is a leech. > >Basically yeah since richards been doing breakbeat tracks since 1990. >The thought of trent making jungle makes some of us who truly love that >music cringe. Mostly because trent reznor makes an idiot of himself with >his ridiculous tortured soul posturing and his oh im so gloomy marketing >gimmicks. I hate to see the music i'm into (aka plug) being associated >with that and brought down to that level. > >oh well... > _____ > / ,-,_) > /,_) >(/ RESH >Live & Direct from the G-Spot, >Orange County, California, USA >http://www1.linkonline.net/fresh/fresh.htm

i knew you'd get it...

Gonzi \(Fresh\) writes:

quoted 3 lines It just seems ridiculous. Some people consider finding and creating

> It just seems ridiculous. Some people consider finding and creating > samples and beats an artform in itself, DJ Shadow being an excellent > example of this.

tell him he can quit wasting his time. i just got "endtroducing" and i can't see what all the fuss is about.

quoted 2 lines The thought of trent making jungle makes some of us who truly love that

> The thought of trent making jungle makes some of us who truly love that > music cringe.

why does it get you so upset? if the spice girls start doing jungle it isn't going to change my opinion about breaks one little bit.

quoted 3 lines Mostly because trent reznor makes an idiot of himself with

> Mostly because trent reznor makes an idiot of himself with > his ridiculous tortured soul posturing and his oh im so gloomy marketing > gimmicks.

i agree, the pose is old.

quoted 2 lines I hate to see the music i'm into (aka plug) being associated

> I hate to see the music i'm into (aka plug) being associated > with that and brought down to that level.

but interestingly, mr plug himself seems to have no problem with working with trent... his album is coming out on trent's label, he did a great remix of perfect drug... if it doesn't bother him, why does it bother you? -- Jon Drukman jsd@gamespot.com SpotMedia Communications ...I was an infinitely hot and dense dot...

On Thu, 29 May 1997, Random Junk wrote: } Gonzi \(Fresh\) writes: } > It just seems ridiculous. Some people consider finding and creating } > samples and beats an artform in itself, DJ Shadow being an excellent } > example of this. } } tell him he can quit wasting his time. i just got "endtroducing" and } i can't see what all the fuss is about. Gee, that's suprising. ;) That's a pretty weak argument for Shadow to stop "wasting" his time. Care to elaborate? | E r i c | [mail] franse@engr.arizona.edu | | F r a n s | [web] http://engr.arizona.edu/~franse | "Make the events occur that you want to occur" - The Black Dog

Eric Frans writes:

quoted 5 lines } tell him he can quit wasting his time. i just got "endtroducing" and

> } tell him he can quit wasting his time. i just got "endtroducing" and > } i can't see what all the fuss is about. > > Gee, that's suprising. ;) That's a pretty weak argument for > Shadow to stop "wasting" his time. Care to elaborate?

i'm working on detailed reviews of all the stuff i bought while in boston, but in a nutshell... the music doesn't change enough and isn't interesting in its own right. it sounds like backing tracks to rap songs. i keep waiting for the vocals to come in. but they don't. so i get bored and fast forward... -- Jon Drukman jsd@gamespot.com SpotMedia Communications ...I was an infinitely hot and dense dot...

On Thu, 29 May 1997, Random Junk wrote:

quoted 5 lines i'm working on detailed reviews of all the stuff i bought while in

> i'm working on detailed reviews of all the stuff i bought while in > boston, but in a nutshell... the music doesn't change enough and isn't > interesting in its own right. it sounds like backing tracks to rap > songs. i keep waiting for the vocals to come in. but they don't. so > i get bored and fast forward...

I agree completely with you.... while shadow as a dj may infact deserve the much-hyped reputation he's earned, his debut album was really not that captivating enough.... there were a few strong tracks, but hardly enough kick to justify an albums worth of song. Now, the new Herbaliser album on Ninjatune is damn good.... DJ Vadim single bores me to tears though. Seems like hippity hoppity bouncy music these days is pretty hit and miss..... Aaron

On Thu, 29 May 1997, Random Junk wrote:

quoted 12 lines Eric Frans writes:

> Eric Frans writes: > > } tell him he can quit wasting his time. i just got "endtroducing" and > > } i can't see what all the fuss is about. > > > > Gee, that's suprising. ;) That's a pretty weak argument for > > Shadow to stop "wasting" his time. Care to elaborate? > > i'm working on detailed reviews of all the stuff i bought while in > boston, but in a nutshell... the music doesn't change enough and isn't > interesting in its own right. it sounds like backing tracks to rap > songs. i keep waiting for the vocals to come in. but they don't. so > i get bored and fast forward...

I am quite thankful that there are few vocals on the DJ Shadow cd. Its definitely one of the better releases I heard last year. DJ Cam has released some cool stuff as well. William Samuels