IDM Mailing Archive

Gonzi wrote:

quoted 11 lines Also: as someone paranoid of growing-up to be 45 years old & 800 miles

>> Also: as someone paranoid of growing-up to be 45 years old & 800 miles >> from a sampler or a turntable, is anyone out there aware of any acoustic >> artists (guitar, handdrums, free jazz, etc.) who do shit similar to >> Squarepusher or Autechre? > > Whaa? Two different animals as far as I'm concerned. If you want to hear > some acoustic d&b check out Jimpster's 12's on freerange. A bit noodly, > but good stuff all the same. Exactly what you're looking for. As far as > Autechre, I think their heads are trapped in 1993 musically. I know it's > not a popular opinion to hold on the list, but oh well. I still buy > everything though.

I disagree with you there Gonzi somewhat. Correct me if your intentions weren't as such, but it seems to me that you're implying that there is a 'progression' in electronica and that Autechre hasn't made the jump. From a structural standpoint, I kinda see your point - a great deal of electronic music from house to trance and even D&B has been about extended jams, i.e. no distinct divisions or parts in a tune. Folx like Bochum Welt, Plug, Squarepusher, and RDJ being the exceptions (not that they're the first or only ones to do so, but that's what immediately comes to mind) to the 'extended jam' concept. From a rhythmic standpoint, however, Autechre is doing some of the most interesting stuff in recent years. The 'Key Nell' EP, some of 'Chiastic Slide', and a couple of the tracks on the Ae Radio broadcast are prime examples of this - non-four-on-the-floor shit that still keeps your head noddin. I hope that someone picks up on this aspect of Ae's output, and starts doing music that grabs both of these components - the rhythmic and structural innovations - to make electronica that's closer to a combination of jazz and classical music but with more tonal and textural variety than either of these genres. GD

quoted 5 lines From a rhythmic standpoint, however, Autechre is doing some of the most

> >From a rhythmic standpoint, however, Autechre is doing some of the most > interesting stuff in recent years. The 'Key Nell' EP, some of 'Chiastic > Slide', and a couple of the tracks on the Ae Radio broadcast are prime > examples of this - non-four-on-the-floor shit that still keeps your head > noddin.

I think their rythms have evolved somewhat and become perhaps a bit more complex, but fankly how different is what they are doing now from the Anti EP? Not a whole lot. It's not necessarily that I'm against the lack of structure in some of their songs, it's the fact that what they're doing now compared to what they were doing years ago is too simmilar to my ears. The one thing that must be avoided at all costs if 'this' music is to be a constantly innovative and expanding genre is the relaxation into a comfortable mode where its sufficient simply to deliver the product that everyone expects from a given artist. This has already happened with FSOL, I think (among a few others) and I would hate to see it happen Autechre. Perhaps I'm being overly paranoid, but it's the one thing I think that seperates IDM from becoming an overly insular form of art music that churns out the same tracks to the same indoctrinated fans for year after year. _____ / ,-,_) /,_) (/ RESH Live & Direct from the G-Spot, Orange County, California, USA Luke Vibert RA show + : http://www1.linkonline.net/fresh/fresh.htm

On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Gonzi (Fresh) wrote: } I think their rythms have evolved somewhat and become perhaps a bit more } complex, but fankly how different is what they are doing now from the } Anti EP? Not a whole lot. It's not necessarily that I'm against the lack } of structure in some of their songs, it's the fact that what they're } doing now compared to what they were doing years ago is too simmilar to } my ears. The one thing that must be avoided at all costs if 'this' music } is to be a constantly innovative and expanding genre is the relaxation } into a comfortable mode where its sufficient simply to deliver the } product that everyone expects from a given artist. This has already } happened with FSOL, I think (among a few others) and I would hate to see } it happen Autechre. Perhaps I'm being overly paranoid, but it's the one } thing I think that seperates IDM from becoming an overly insular form of } art music that churns out the same tracks to the same indoctrinated fans } for year after year. Autechre's use of filtering, noise, layering, complex beats, etc. is expanding constantly. They are moving in directions that many other IDM artists are not even exploring. Progress? Yes, I think so. When I buy an Autechre album I don't know quite what to expect. Granted, they have some similar *elements* in each work, but their overall sound has changed drastically over the years to my ears. They are still challenging the listener, which is something lacking in a lot of IDM now. Once Autechre starts going down the drum & bass path, I might change my mind, however. I have nothing against that style, but that's not what Autechre is about. | E r i c | [mail] franse@engr.arizona.edu | | F r a n s | [web] http://intermix.engr.arizona.edu/~franse | "Make the events occur that you want to occur" - The Black Dog

On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, GD wrote: ]I hope that someone picks up on this aspect of Ae's output, and starts ]doing music that grabs both of these components - the rhythmic and ]structural innovations - to make electronica that's closer to a ]combination of jazz and classical music but with more tonal and textural ]variety than either of these genres. It's going to be hard electronically reproducing the tonal variety of classical music, considering the whole "hey we got an orchestra" factor... .-------------------------------------------------------------------------. | nm: nickworthington | ml: nworth1@umbc.edu | .25grandizer1wrecktangle | |-------------------------------------------------------------------------| | http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~nworth1 | "Walk softly and carry a big spliff." | `-------------------------------------------------------------------------'

quoted 6 lines On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, GD wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, GD wrote: > ]I hope that someone picks up on this aspect of Ae's output, and starts > ]doing music that grabs both of these components - the rhythmic and > ]structural innovations - to make electronica that's closer to a > ]combination of jazz and classical music but with more tonal and textural > ]variety than either of these genres.

I've raised the point of structure in dance music before, and received a number of interesting responses, most of which I didn't have time to reply adequately to--big exams on the horizon :( -- but it's too important to me to keep quiet now. More below. wrecktangle:

quoted 2 lines It's going to be hard electronically reproducing the tonal variety of

> It's going to be hard electronically reproducing the tonal variety of > classical music, considering the whole "hey we got an orchestra" factor...

Of course it's a bad idea to try to "reproduce" the sort of *timbral* variety you find in orchestral music on synthesizers; electronica has a totally different kind of timbral variety. But I can see no reason why electronic music *couldn't* incorporate ideas of structure from western concert music, as well as techniques for using harmony and rhythm to articulate those structural concepts. There are several reasons why this *isn't* being done. It takes time--a lot of time--years--to learn how, say, Stravinsky works and then to figure out how that might be made to apply to dance music. I doubt most dance artists would see this as a worthwhile investment of time, since dance music culture doesn't revolve around these musical issues, and it's more cost-effective to use your time primarily to produce more music. A more serious problem is that the structural ideas I'm talking about almost certainly conflict with the things DJs look for in records, or, more to the point, that the authentic musical practice of mixing casts doubt on the relevance of "structural integrity" in today's music--if it doesn't completely destroy it. Does structure manner anymore? Maybe not, but I think it can, and it's something I want to hear. The question of *how* is one that I'm grappling with in my own music. It'll be a while before I have anything really stunning--I'm still learning the equipment--but I can already see how fantastic it could be. Say you're listening to a long track, and it's pulled you through six or seven different musical worlds that seem not to have much in common (except tempo, maybe), and all of a sudden one chord comes along that brings everything into focus. But there's the DJ problem again, because if you start mixing midway through the track, the power of that one chord is reduced to the extent that its context hasn't been prepared. So I guess I'm talking about dance music mutating into something else, or a side-stream of dance music, but not really dance music itself. I'm not sure what place it has on the "scene"--and who knows, maybe I'm just wasting my time. I just know I *really* want to hear what could happen, and if it comes down to me to do it, I will. Comments welcome--especially if they'll help me figure out how to do what I want to do musically. I can't promise quick or extensive replies, since I have doctoral exams in about two weeks (still avoiding panic, maybe it's just denial), but if this interests you, I'd like to hear what you have to say. Thanks! J ________ \ / | Bee women: "What kind of corn soldiers are you?" H. James Harkins | Arthur: "Umm, oh, er, we're, uh, we're colonels." jharkins@acpub.duke.edu | \/ | - from "The Tick," now on Comedy Central, 6PM M-F

quoted 13 lines wrecktangle:

> wrecktangle: >> It's going to be hard electronically reproducing the tonal variety of >> classical music, considering the whole "hey we got an orchestra" factor... > > Of course it's a bad idea to try to "reproduce" the sort of *timbral* > variety you find in orchestral music on synthesizers; electronica has a > totally different kind of timbral variety. But I can see no reason why > electronic music *couldn't* incorporate ideas of structure from western > concert music, [...] > > There are several reasons why this *isn't* being done. It takes time--a > lot of time--years--to learn how, say, Stravinsky works and then to > figure out how that might be made to apply to dance music. [...]

quoted 3 lines Does structure matter anymore? [...]

> Does structure matter anymore? [...] > > So I guess I'm talking about dance music mutating into something else [...]

NO!! NO MORE RICK WAKEMAN!!! NO MORE "TALES FROM PORNOGRAPHIC TOASTER OVENS"! AIEEEEEEE ... hehehehe ... - Greg

----------

quoted 16 lines From: Gonzi (Fresh) <fresh@linkonline.net>

> From: Gonzi (Fresh) <fresh@linkonline.net> > > I think their rythms have evolved somewhat and become perhaps a bit more > complex, but fankly how different is what they are doing now from the > Anti EP? Not a whole lot. It's not necessarily that I'm against the lack > of structure in some of their songs, it's the fact that what they're > doing now compared to what they were doing years ago is too simmilar to > my ears. The one thing that must be avoided at all costs if 'this' music > is to be a constantly innovative and expanding genre is the relaxation > into a comfortable mode where its sufficient simply to deliver the > product that everyone expects from a given artist. This has already > happened with FSOL, I think (among a few others) and I would hate to see > it happen Autechre. Perhaps I'm being overly paranoid, but it's the one > thing I think that seperates IDM from becoming an overly insular form of > art music that churns out the same tracks to the same indoctrinated fans > for year after year.

I'm sorry but I find major differences between Amber and the shit on AI I & II. But, I just mark it up to differences in taste. If you're not very in to Ae, you won't listen close enough to catch the differences. I love their stuff and therefore catch things like the alternating reverb and not reverb on the snare in Amber's track 10. Amber is way more intelligent than the AI releases. Tri Repetae could almost be from another group except Second Bad Vilbel follows the AI pattern with a brand new set of sounds and non-drum percussion. I mark it all up to taste. _ / \ /\ /__/ \ / \ \ / \AVIS \\\\ ravis1@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~ravis1/

Gonzi (Fresh):

quoted 6 lines I think their rythms have evolved somewhat and become perhaps a bit more

> I think their rythms have evolved somewhat and become perhaps a bit more > complex, but fankly how different is what they are doing now from the > Anti EP? Not a whole lot. It's not necessarily that I'm against the lack > of structure in some of their songs, it's the fact that what they're > doing now compared to what they were doing years ago is too simmilar to > my ears.

Not to draw this thread out too much longer, but I guess I still don't understand what you mean about being the same. As others have pointed out, their sonic/timbral vocabulary has been pretty much redifined with each EP/LP combination - Envane/Chiastic sounds different than Anvil/Tri sounds different than Garbage/Amber. Here's what Chiastic and Envane have to offer that is original IMO: 'Rettic AC' and 'Hub' are nice bits of musique concrete - nothing like this on any of their previous releases; 'Cichli' is in 10/4 and tunes in different meters are surprisingly rare for IDM in general; 'Nuane', 'Latent Quarter', and 'Laughing Quarter' have some of the most quirky and nuanced programming they've ever done (all stumbly and noisy) - which doesn't sound like their previous releases at all.

quoted 6 lines The one thing that must be avoided at all costs if 'this' music

> The one thing that must be avoided at all costs if 'this' music > is to be a constantly innovative and expanding genre is the relaxation > into a comfortable mode where its sufficient simply to deliver the > product that everyone expects from a given artist. This has already > happened with FSOL, I think (among a few others) and I would hate to see > it happen Autechre.

I guess it depends on what you consider to be innovation. I think that some basic subgenres within IDM are peaking, d&b in particular, and Autechre is one of the few artists trying to work outside of the current phase yet all the while incorporating some of its elements. Not that they're alone, but one of the prominent ones for sure. GD

On Sun, 16 Mar 1997 22:14:25 GD <g-d@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

quoted 5 lines each EP/LP combination - Envane/Chiastic sounds different than Anvil/Tri

>each EP/LP combination - Envane/Chiastic sounds different than Anvil/Tri >sounds different than Garbage/Amber. Here's what Chiastic and Envane >have to offer that is original IMO: <snip> >'Cichli' is in 10/4 and tunes in different meters are >surprisingly rare for IDM in general;

Well, that's not properly true: The Black Dog & Plaid make extensive use of 3/4 beats and they also did some polymetric stuff; FSOL have a couple of 3/4 tracks in their latest offering and did some weird stuff in Lifeforms; Squarepusher & Freeform (by the way, do someone know what's this chap doing now?) have both done 6/4 stuff; Spooky's "Lowest Common Denominator" makes use of two different time signatures (2x5/4 & 3x4/4 (or 1x6/4)) for the base loop; Autechre themselves did a NO time signature track ("Nine" from Amber: IMHO their masterpiece) and so on.. However I must admit that 10/4 (5/4?) is quite a rare metre in EVERY musical genre, except maybe jazz. Bye! Mauro Longone upanisad@iol.it

On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:41:40 +0100, you wrote:

quoted 11 lines On Sun, 16 Mar 1997 22:14:25 GD <g-d@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 16 Mar 1997 22:14:25 GD <g-d@worldnet.att.net> wrote: >>each EP/LP combination - Envane/Chiastic sounds different than Anvil/Tri >>sounds different than Garbage/Amber. Here's what Chiastic and Envane >>have to offer that is original IMO: <snip> >>'Cichli' is in 10/4 and tunes in different meters are >>surprisingly rare for IDM in general; >Well, that's not properly true: The Black Dog & Plaid make extensive use of >3/4 beats and they also did some polymetric stuff; FSOL have a couple of 3/4 >tracks in their latest offering and did some weird stuff in Lifeforms; >Squarepusher & Freeform (by the way, do someone know what's this chap doing >now?)

tonnes of stuff. something for rephlex apparently, album for skam, something for musik aus strom and lots of other things... g.