IDM Mailing Archive

I know this may sound like a stupid question but what, if any, is the difference between Jungle and Drum n Bass? Tim

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Tim Fothegill F. Ciencias Dpto. Biologia wrote:

quoted 3 lines I know this may sound like a stupid question but what, if any, is the

> I know this may sound like a stupid question but what, if any, is the > difference between Jungle and Drum n Bass? >

We called it Jungle before 96, and in 96 we call it drum & bass. Initially 'Drum & Bass' and 'Jungle' were distinct sub-genres, but keeping Jungle sub-genre's straight is a full time job. To catalog the sub-genres I've heard or heard about, you've got Ragga, Drum&Bass, Hardstep, Techstep, Darkside, 'Intelligent' D&B (which as near as I can tell is D&B any time white people are involved, which smacks of racism to me). Then there's Jungle D&B predecessors like hardcore, breakbeat. The mind boggles. --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Stop thinking, and end your problems" -- Tao Te Ching Home Page, featuring Reagan on Black Velvet, the EMP Compilation CD, samples of my music, etc http://soli.inav.net/~kent/ Kent Williams kent@inav.net CADSI 2651 Crosspark Road Coralville IA 52241 (319) 338 6053 (home) (319) 626 6700 x 219 (work) (319) 626 3489 (fax)

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Kent Williams wrote:

quoted 4 lines To catalog the sub-genres I've heard or heard about, you've got

> To catalog the sub-genres I've heard or heard about, you've got > Ragga, Drum&Bass, Hardstep, Techstep, Darkside, 'Intelligent' D&B > (which as near as I can tell is D&B any time white people are involved, > which smacks of racism to me).

this last comment has been made before and it makes me wonder - how the hell am i supposed to know (or care) if they're black or white or chinese or whatever? out of the past 20 12"s i've bought, not _one_ has a picture of the artist on it... i think it's a weird thing to bring up, i guess. i have no idea what race witchman, t.power, squarepusher, etc are, and i could care less. unrelated: anyone have a witchman discography? 8) hummus! [grievous] [sloth code: S++] [http://onramp.uscom.com/~grievous] ["my revelation causes revolution... ] [ ...while my sound system brings noise pollution"]

On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, grievous iv - gymkata! wrote:

quoted 13 lines On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Kent Williams wrote:

> > On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Kent Williams wrote: > > 'Intelligent' D&B > > (which as near as I can tell is D&B any time white people are involved, > > which smacks of racism to me). > > this last comment has been made before and it makes me wonder - how the > hell am i supposed to know (or care) if they're black or white or chinese > or whatever? out of the past 20 12"s i've bought, not _one_ has a > picture of the artist on it... > > i think it's a weird thing to bring up, i guess. i have no idea what > race witchman, t.power, squarepusher, etc are, and i could care less.

Let me clarify, since it seems to have raised an issue that can flare into a pointless thread: I like the stuff that's called "Intelligent" but the tag bugs me. What makes it more intelligent than the music to which it is theoretically being contrasted? It seems to me that a lot of the intelligent D&B really is a step removed from the originators, and the fact that it's coming from people like Aphex Twin, Orbital, Squarepusher, yadda yadda makes it more accessible to people who are not into the original jungle scene. And more of those guys are white than the originators. It feels to me that it recapitulates the scene in the 50's where black artists were recording rock and roll records, which were covered by white artists who made it safe for radio. Is there a real racial bias going on here? I don't know. As near as I can tell, techno, jungle, IDM, etc parties are a lot more easy going racially than other scenes, at least in the US -- perhaps even more so in the UK. I'm not accusing anyone on IDM in the least. When it comes to stuff like that, don't look over your shoulder for the PC police, but think about language and words when you use them. And the idea of 'Intelligent' jungle just bugs me. Jungle didn't start out stupid, and then get colonized by a bunch of smarter techno-boffins, and to use the term is a big diss to the originators. --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Stop thinking, and end your problems" -- Tao Te Ching Home Page, featuring Reagan on Black Velvet, the EMP Compilation CD, samples of my music, etc http://soli.inav.net/~kent/ Kent Williams kent@inav.net CADSI 2651 Crosspark Road Coralville IA 52241 (319) 338 6053 (home) (319) 626 6700 x 219 (work) (319) 626 3489 (fax)

I agree wholeheartedly with most of what you've stated. However, I think people use the term "intelligent" not to imply that the "old school" originators of a genre were not "intelligent", but rather to distinguish contemporary music (D+B) that is less, well, cheesy, than the more mainstream (D+B). ie while Speedy J may be "intelligent" techno,Moby may not be(I'm not sure if that's a good example). The idea of "mainstream" isn't essential here, just the nature of the music,(IMHO often determined by the intended audience) which I think you get the jist of. Anyway, my main point, genres aren't static, and aren't that important, but for people who don't have easy acess to the material(and its hard enough to find even for those who do), they are useful/helpful when getting some advice/reviews/categorization from those who have heard material. ok, sorry if people didn't want to talk about semantics. I just appreciate the opinions of everyone on this list,especially reviews, often containing "categories" or "sub-genres" that save many descriptive words. bye andy On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Kent Williams wrote:

quoted 54 lines On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, grievous iv - gymkata! wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, grievous iv - gymkata! wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Kent Williams wrote: > > > 'Intelligent' D&B > > > (which as near as I can tell is D&B any time white people are involved, > > > which smacks of racism to me). > > > > this last comment has been made before and it makes me wonder - how the > > hell am i supposed to know (or care) if they're black or white or chinese > > or whatever? out of the past 20 12"s i've bought, not _one_ has a > > picture of the artist on it... > > > > i think it's a weird thing to bring up, i guess. i have no idea what > > race witchman, t.power, squarepusher, etc are, and i could care less. > > Let me clarify, since it seems to have raised an issue that can flare > into a pointless thread: > > I like the stuff that's called "Intelligent" but the tag bugs me. What > makes it more intelligent than the music to which it is theoretically > being contrasted? > > It seems to me that a lot of the intelligent D&B really is a step > removed from the originators, and the fact that it's coming from > people like Aphex Twin, Orbital, Squarepusher, yadda yadda makes it > more accessible to people who are not into the original jungle scene. > And more of those guys are white than the originators. > > It feels to me that it recapitulates the scene in the 50's where black > artists were recording rock and roll records, which were covered by > white artists who made it safe for radio. > > Is there a real racial bias going on here? I don't know. As near as > I can tell, techno, jungle, IDM, etc parties are a lot more easy going > racially than other scenes, at least in the US -- perhaps even more so > in the UK. I'm not accusing anyone on IDM in the least. > > When it comes to stuff like that, don't look over your shoulder for the > PC police, but think about language and words when you use them. And > the idea of 'Intelligent' jungle just bugs me. Jungle didn't start > out stupid, and then get colonized by a bunch of smarter techno-boffins, > and to use the term is a big diss to the originators. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Stop thinking, and end your problems" -- Tao Te Ching > Home Page, featuring Reagan on Black Velvet, the EMP Compilation CD, > samples of my music, etc http://soli.inav.net/~kent/ > Kent Williams kent@inav.net > CADSI 2651 Crosspark Road Coralville IA 52241 > (319) 338 6053 (home) > (319) 626 6700 x 219 (work) > (319) 626 3489 (fax) > >

quoted 5 lines When it comes to stuff like that, don't look over your shoulder for the

> When it comes to stuff like that, don't look over your shoulder for the > PC police, but think about language and words when you use them. And > the idea of 'Intelligent' jungle just bugs me. Jungle didn't start > out stupid, and then get colonized by a bunch of smarter techno-boffins, > and to use the term is a big diss to the originators.

Jungle as far as I am concerned has gotten better. I am not labelling it intelligent or anything else. I am finally glad to not be hearing sped up Chipmunk vocals, in tracks. I think Drum N bass and techno had a period that wasn't very good. I hated to go to rave around 1992 because everything was sped up to +8 or played at the wrong speed and ton of chipmunk vocals (Altern 8, Prodigy, etc.) I like a lot the more recent Drum N bass like Photek, LTJ Bukem, Squarepusher, etc. I think the genre has just progressed.

At 10:51 PM -0500 10/7/96, Kent Williams wrote:

quoted 5 lines When it comes to stuff like that, don't look over your shoulder for the

>When it comes to stuff like that, don't look over your shoulder for the >PC police, but think about language and words when you use them. And >the idea of 'Intelligent' jungle just bugs me. Jungle didn't start >out stupid, and then get colonized by a bunch of smarter techno-boffins, >and to use the term is a big diss to the originators.

well, it's an interesting question and one that has been much on my mind lately since i've been trying to work with these other guys on some jungle tracks. basically there appear to be two major camps in the jungle movement - stuff aimed squarely at the dancefloor and stuff that ain't. in our little neck of the woods we'd probably divide that up as "techno" and "idm". i really hate the term "idm" and have since day one, but the list name wasn't up to me, so we're stuck with it. anyway, i find most of the "pure dancefloor" jungle stuff to be totally unlistenable. most of what i've heard is incredibly cheesy and predictable. on the other hand, my jungle friends tell me that that stuff just WORKS like a mutha and the stuff i like is effete snobby crap that is only good when you're very stoned. (not that i see a particular problem with that, but that's their viewpoint). it is unfortunate that the word "intelligent" ever got involved but terminology is always problematic. i propose dancefloor jungle and non-dancefloor jungle. that's the best i can come up with. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Drukman jsd@cyborganic.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Jon Drukman wrote: [snipznap]

quoted 8 lines anyway, i find most of the "pure dancefloor" jungle stuff to be totally

> > anyway, i find most of the "pure dancefloor" jungle stuff to be totally > unlistenable. most of what i've heard is incredibly cheesy and predictable. > > on the other hand, my jungle friends tell me that that stuff just WORKS > like a mutha and the stuff i like is effete snobby crap that is only good > when you're very stoned. (not that i see a particular problem with that, > but that's their viewpoint).

Huh. I've always found it to be the other way around... the craftier stuff tends to engage me enough to keep me moving, whereas the straight-up-formulaic-bassline-dropping tracks tend to get old pretty fast without, er, "outside assistance." .--------------------------------------------------------------------. | Eric Moon eamoon@smmedia.com Phone: (206) 523-7065 | | Lead Programmer Pager: 1-800-617-8414 | | Schmidt Mead Media Inc. (or) pageeamoon@smmedia.com | `--------------------------------------------------------------------'

quoted 3 lines it is unfortunate that the word "intelligent" ever got involved but

> it is unfortunate that the word "intelligent" ever got involved but > terminology is always problematic. i propose dancefloor jungle and > non-dancefloor jungle. that's the best i can come up with.

this is exactly the terminology i use. when people ask me what i spin, i tell them 'drum'n'bass, the non-dancefloor stuff'. 'cos that's exactly what it is. :) who are you working with jon? (unless i'm being too nosey :) mikebee

quoted 4 lines I know this may sound like a stupid question but what, if any, is the

> I know this may sound like a stupid question but what, if any, is the > difference between Jungle and Drum n Bass? > > Tim

Drum 'n Bass is the politically correct term for Jungle, because Jungle has alledged racial connotations. There is also a school of thought that says Jungle is the "hard-step" stuff, and Drum 'n Bass is the more "intelligent" oriented stuff. Any compilation that mentions "Warfare" or "Guerillaz" is bound to be hard-step as opposed to a compilation which mentions "Innovative". "Innovative" means intelligent. Sincerely, Brian - who's takin a piss on intelligence +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Enquiring minds want to know. Brian J Tang NYC Like Mine +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

quoted 3 lines It feels to me that it recapitulates the scene in the 50's where black

> It feels to me that it recapitulates the scene in the 50's where black > artists were recording rock and roll records, which were covered by > white artists who made it safe for radio.

Errr...but if it wasn't for white DJ's like Alan Freed and White owned labels like Chess, etc. nobody would know who the hell Howling Wolf was. Whites had just as much to do with the blossoming of Rock & Roll as Blacks did in the early 50's. I think the situation here is a bit different. Listen to Goldie and LTJ Bukem then listen to Squarepusher and Photek and you tell me who is making jungle 'safe' for radio. Race is hardly an issue. I mean I have no problem listening to Screaming Jay Hawkins, but I sure like the Beatles better, you know? Nobody is saying that the black jungle Dj's and artists back in the day where a bunch of morons (anyone see a parallel here with Detroit?), but some of the newer jungle artists & those inspired by jungle (Squarepusher, Photek, Plug, AFX, etc.) have taken it in fucking brilliant directions the originators might not have considered. On the hip-hop tip, do you think Grandmaster Flash would have ever come up with stuff like Wagonchrist, Dj Shadow, or the the Ninja's? It's all for the good of the music, and keeping it fresh (no pun intended).... Peace out, _____ / ,-,_) /,_) (/ RESH Live & Direct from the G-Spot, Orange County, California, USA

Regarding "intelligence": Perhaps the "intelligent" label (as in "idm", for that matter) simply designates music which appeals to the mind and the body, as opposed to much club-oriented music, which drives the body, but unfortunately offers little to inspire the mind. (Of course, all music generally aims to inspire the emotions, but we won't even get into that here). In that case, perhaps "intellectual" would be a better term. But that word frightens the children. Of course, there are those brave DJs who will play "intelligent" dance music, and there are those adventurous audiences who will thrill and chill to the elevation. Thank God for all that, and the "intelligent" music-creators, our sine qua non, not to mention post hoc ergo propter hoc (hats off to Carl S). Then again, perhaps the "intelligent" label was intended as a replacement for the worn-out "avant-garde" and "alternative" labels, though it seems to be suffering the same fate of over- and mis-use which eventually made those titles meaningless and irrelevant. Zenon M. Feszczak Ambientologist

In a message dated 96-10-08 11:52:11 EDT, you write: << >When it comes to stuff like that, don't look over your shoulder for the >PC police, but think about language and words when you use them. And >the idea of 'Intelligent' jungle just bugs me. Jungle didn't start >out stupid, and then get colonized by a bunch of smarter techno-boffins, >and to use the term is a big diss to the originators. >> Well I must agree sounds a bit inflammatory to me. I think the reason for the term "Intelligent" in relation to this genre of music- and correct me if I am wrong peeps - but in an effort to separate this music from the usual crap you hear if you go into any mainstream club these days. The problem is that you are left with placing all of the other music - that could very well be great music but just fits into a different catagory, into a contrary position. In other words if it isn't "Intelligent" then it must be "Stupid". Easy to see how someone could get offended. Eric

On Wed, 9 Oct 1996 Pixel8ion@aol.com wrote:

quoted 4 lines The problem is that you are left with placing all of the other music - that

> The problem is that you are left with placing all of the other music - that > could very well be great music but just fits into a different catagory, into > a contrary position. In other words if it isn't "Intelligent" then it must > be "Stupid".

Here's how I classify jungle: 1) Intelligent - 100% Diva free. 2) Shit(e) - Somehow a fuckin Diva made it into the studio and has rendered what is otherwise pleasant beatology into a tortured travesty of music. (ala Logical Progression) JUST SAY NO TO DIVAS !!!! note: no reference to race - white divas suck just as bad as black ones. I do however reserve my opinion for those wonderful members of the elvan race (i.e. Bjork) ;) khannan suntharam kxs28972@bayou.uh.edu

khannan suntharam said once upon a time:

quoted 1 line 1) Intelligent - 100% Diva free.

>1) Intelligent - 100% Diva free.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time with the fact that just because there isn't a Diva in a jungle track, it is somehow automatically classified as IDM. Case in point, the recent Locust single of "Noone in The World." I was psyched to find this track had finally made itself onto a CD single. I wasn't so psyched to find out that all the remixes were complete shite because they'd thrown a jungle rhythm in the background. Every time I hear something like this, I just picture some insane-idiot gong-show wall-drummer going off in the background. Why Van Hoen thought that this was more interesting than those lusciously slow plodding beats of the original track is a mystery to me.

On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, Pete Ashdown wrote:

quoted 6 lines khannan suntharam said once upon a time:

> khannan suntharam said once upon a time: > > >1) Intelligent - 100% Diva free. > > I'm sorry, but I have a hard time with the fact that just because there isn't > a Diva in a jungle track, it is somehow automatically classified as IDM.

Do you mean to stand for the proposition that everytime some bullshit "Whoooo-hoooo baaaaaabeeeeee caaaaann't keeeeeeeeep hooooooldin on! whhhooo-hooooo" etc etc. ad nauseum comes wailin' in over the goddamn soun' system, that it has suddenly become soulful and insightful ?! Gaaahhh! It makes me want to march into the recording studio and-and...godammit where's my medication!!!?

quoted 4 lines Case in point, the recent Locust single of "Noone in The World." I was

> Case in point, the recent Locust single of "Noone in The World." I was > psyched to find this track had finally made itself onto a CD single. I wasn't > so psyched to find out that all the remixes were complete shite because they'd > thrown a jungle rhythm in the background.

Is this the same "Noone in the world" by WFO? Well, if so, that isn't a Diva...that's one of the Carpenters (right?). A true testimony to the genius of a musician who can turn such a shit(e) sample source into a good tune. Kinda like that Orb mix of Depeche Mode... Agh...enough ranting. kxs28972@bayou.uh.edu khannan suntharam

khannan suntharam misses my point entirely and states:

quoted 7 lines 1) Intelligent - 100% Diva free.

>> >1) Intelligent - 100% Diva free. >> >> I'm sorry, but I have a hard time with the fact that just because there isn't >> a Diva in a jungle track, it is somehow automatically classified as IDM. > >Do you mean to stand for the proposition that everytime some bullshit >"Whoooo-hoooo baaaaaabeeeeee caaaaann't keeeeeeeeep hooooooldin on!

No I don't. What I mean is that jungle tracks WITHOUT Divas are not necessarily IDM because they DON'T HAVE A DIVA. There are plenty of jungle tracks which fit this category (ie: no diva) which are *SHITE*.

quoted 9 lines Case in point, the recent Locust single of "Noone in The World." I was

>> Case in point, the recent Locust single of "Noone in The World." I was >> psyched to find this track had finally made itself onto a CD single. I wasn't >> so psyched to find out that all the remixes were complete shite because they'd >> thrown a jungle rhythm in the background. > >Is this the same "Noone in the world" by WFO? Well, if so, that isn't a >Diva...that's one of the Carpenters (right?). A true testimony to the >genius of a musician who can turn such a shit(e) sample source into a good >tune. Kinda like that Orb mix of Depeche Mode...

WFO=Locust=Mark Van Hoen What I was trying to state is that the original (not the Carpenter tune, the WFO/Locust track, which came out in '93) is JUST FINE. It is the remixes of the original WFO/Locust which came out recently, which have that CRAAAAZY JUNGLE DRUMMIN! which *SUCK*.

khannan suntharam <kxs28972@Bayou.UH.EDU> belched forth:

quoted 9 lines Here's how I classify jungle:

> > Here's how I classify jungle: > > 1) Intelligent - 100% Diva free. > 2) Shit(e) - Somehow a fuckin Diva made it into the studio and has > rendered what is otherwise pleasant beatology into a tortured travesty of > music. (ala Logical Progression) > > JUST SAY NO TO DIVAS !!!!

I'm confused. When you say diva's do you mean all singers, or just female ones, or just singers you don't like? Do you like any music with vocals? Thats a bit extreme if you don't - try David Toop's new compilation Crooning on Venus (Virgin I think) for some extreme vocal music. Personally I reckon a bit of singing often does wonders for a track i.e. The two Chameleon tracks on Good Looking, erm and loads of others tracks I can't be bothered to think off. What do other IDM'ers think of singing on electronic music? I certainly know a few people, who having discovered a world outside guitar/bass/drums/vocals bounce violently in the opposite direction and can't stand any hint of a vocal. Oh well - their loss. Cheers Andrew C.

quoted 5 lines JUST SAY NO TO DIVAS !!!!

>> JUST SAY NO TO DIVAS !!!! > > I'm confused. When you say diva's do you mean all singers, or > just female ones, or just singers you don't like? Do you like > any music with vocals? Thats a bit extreme if you don't -

Is it?

quoted 1 line Personally I reckon a bit of singing often does wonders for a track

> Personally I reckon a bit of singing often does wonders for a track

I don't.

quoted 1 line i.e. The two Chameleon tracks on Good Looking, erm and loads

> i.e. The two Chameleon tracks on Good Looking, erm and loads

Chameleon, blecch ... I can see why khannan suntharam said what he did ... I've heard a few Goldie tracks that made me think to myself, "Hmmn, some nice noises in here ... " and then some vocal comes along and suddenly the snares-that-never-stop of Jungle combined with the vocals just puts me right off of it.

quoted 4 lines What do other IDM'ers think of singing on electronic music? I certainly know

> What do other IDM'ers think of singing on electronic music? I certainly know > a few people, who having discovered a world outside guitar/bass/drums/vocals > bounce violently in the opposite direction and can't stand any hint of > a vocal. Oh well - their loss.

Vocals suck. Hehehe hehe hehehehe ... If I wanted vocals, I'd sing Joy Division songs in the shower ... (But seriously folks) I don't mind when a vocal snippet is used as an instrumental addition - the odd Ofra Haza sample here and there, fer example, or the Karen Carpenter motif from "No One In The World" - but I have little tolerance for singing or House divas (outside of the club/rave environment). Being one of those people who's been pummeled for the past 30 years by guitar/bass/drums/vocals and who "bounce[d] violently in the opposite direction", I resent the implication that it's "my loss" because I'm sick of conventional music and vocals. Whatever floats yer boat mate ... - Greg

quoted 1 line What do other IDM'ers think of singing on electronic music?

> What do other IDM'ers think of singing on electronic music?

Vocals are fine if they are done in the interest of the music, not if they are done to cater to the mindless masses who can't accept any music unless someone is blabbing over it the whole 4 minutes. I think the fellow before was objecting to the sort of pointless wailing found on alot of jungle-lite, most noteably (sing it with me) "Tiiiiiiimmmmeeeeeeeeelllleeeeeeeeesssssss" and the like with singers who can't think of anything better to sing than the same lyric again and agian inercut with a bunch of howling like a gibbon in heat. As for IDM in general...FSOL did it well with Liz F. of Cocteau on Lifeforms, Orbital did a fine job of it on Snivelisation (lets not talk about the box), haven't heard Girl/Boy yet but from what I hear, DMX Crew, Mike & Rich...anyway, it can be done. _____ / ,-,_) /,_) (/ RESH Live & Direct from the G-Spot, Orange County, California, USA

quoted 5 lines fellow before was objecting to the sort of pointless wailing found on

>fellow before was objecting to the sort of pointless wailing found on >alot of jungle-lite, most noteably (sing it with me) >"Tiiiiiiimmmmeeeeeeeeelllleeeeeeeeesssssss" and the like with singers >who can't think of anything better to sing than the same lyric again and >agian inercut with a bunch of howling like a gibbon in heat.

"Ahhhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyymmmmmmmmmmm singing to-ho-you-hoo!" The vocalist in Peshay's _Vocal Tune_ completely ruins a choice song. The logic to the lyrics + why they are necessary to the song bewilder me. .grant.h.horne

On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, me and mr. jones wrote:

quoted 4 lines "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyymmmmmmmmmmm singing to-ho-you-hoo!"

> "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyymmmmmmmmmmm singing to-ho-you-hoo!" > > The vocalist in Peshay's _Vocal Tune_ completely ruins a choice song. > The logic to the lyrics + why they are necessary to the song bewilder me.

wow. what can i say? if you don't get it, you don't get it. If you hear that song and just get bewildered, there's really nothing to say. There's a definite difference between vocals and songs (ie verse-chorus-verse). yeah, ther's a *ton* of crap jungle. but why does the appearance of a vocal automatically render the song 'ruined'? I think it's a soul thing. and if you don't get it you're missing out on a whole genre of amazing emotional music going on right now, with vocals and without. why does there have to be a 'logic' to the lyrics included? what do they matter? Some of the best drum and bass released this year had vocals...Everything But The Girl produced by Spring Heel Jack (as well as the EBTG recent Photek remix!), Alex Reece (who, to be honest, is 'guilty' of making pop records recently - but then why can't pop be good?), Logical Progression, PFM (who are completely unmissable in EVERY respect). I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but i think the anti-vocal statements written here stink of pseudo-intellectualism and all-around snobbery. Granted, we're all snobby -- but to be snobby around snobs? come on...surely we can tell when we're being shoveled our own shit. my suggestions: open up a little bit. gather some PFM, some old 4 Hero and just listen. It's not about vocals vs. non-vocals. It's about craftsmanship. Drop all those tired old preconceptions about vocal-led music (unfortunately conjured up by endless media-pushed bullshit like mariah carey et al since the dawn of time) and see if you can understand what these artists are saying. Jungle is as much about technical expertise as it is about feeling and soul and groove. with that in mind, take another look. mikebee

On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, Michel Battaglia wrote:

quoted 3 lines music (unfortunately conjured up by endless media-pushed bullshit like

> music (unfortunately conjured up by endless media-pushed bullshit like > mariah carey et al since the dawn of time) and see if you can understand > what these artists are saying. Jungle is as much about technical

You know...not that this contradicts me or anything...but I like Mariah Carey's "remix" of that excellent tune by Tom Tom Club...er..uhm. Divas Suck! ...yeah. khannan suntharam kxs28972@bayou.uh.edu

quoted 1 line What do other IDM'ers think of singing on electronic music?

>> What do other IDM'ers think of singing on electronic music?

I say, why not? The trouble with pop-rock-blues music is it is essentially intended as poetry... the music is merely an excuse for someone to sing some lyrics they wrote that they think are neat for a few minutes, and the masses generally accept the music based upon the lyrical, rather than the musical quality. I prefer instrumental music in general, because pop music, with its emphasis on the lyrical and its slew of lazy, poorly trained and untalented/unimaginative musicians, tends to produce the same backing tracks with the same few chords and drum rolls over and over again using the same dull instrumentation, whereas instrumentalists are forced, by the fact that their music will be taken not for the value of its lyrical content but as music in and of itself, to add richness, complexity, and subtleties to their work. This is, of course, still not neccessarily true; in house music, for example, which is mostly instrumental, many artists produce dull, repetitive, dance oriented tracks, which may have lyrics in them but are designed to move the body and not neccessarily the mind. However, IDM as a genre is genreally comprised of artists who spend some measure of time and effort on their tracks, and generally produce complex and interesting music. Putting vocals over the top, not just sampled/repeated stuff and/or wailing, coudn't neccessarily hurt, in fact, it might lead to the creation of a new kind of pop music (which does already exist, but is decidedly rare), one that would contain lyrical as well as musical invetiveness and perhaps sensitize our misguided youth to the value of good musical content in their music. The trouble with most of my pop-rock loving friends is that they are unable to understand the point of having music without words, that sometimes, music is just for listening. I feel they are missing alot.

On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, Sugatis & Co wrote:

quoted 2 lines What do other IDM'ers think of singing on electronic music?

> >> What do other IDM'ers think of singing on electronic music? >

Well, as usual when vocal idm is mentioned I always like to take the chance to plug some of my favourite bands. So, be on the look out for: slowdive 5ep: Vocal idm at it's best. slowdive in mind remixes: remixes of the above brought to you by bandulu and reload. ecstasty of st. theresa: greatness, with guitars and moog. see bella's homepage at hyperreal. st. etienne: good remixes here and there. I like underworld - cool kids of death, secret knowledge - pale movie and aphex twin - quex-rd. Scala: ep and album are good fuzzy trip hop cocteaut twins: Mark clifford remixes. nicely ambient from another vocalic idm band, seefeel. Funnily enough, looking at these now, I see that they are all male producer/writer with female vox. Comments anyone? Phil Downey

On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, Philip Downey wrote:

quoted 2 lines cocteaut twins: Mark clifford remixes. nicely ambient from another

> cocteaut twins: Mark clifford remixes. nicely ambient from another > vocalic idm band, seefeel.

This is really a nice EP. Being a Cocteau Twins fan, this was like chocolate and peanut butter. Any more collaborations in the works? An album perhaps? khannan suntharam kxs28972@bayou.uh.edu

quoted 8 lines khannan suntharam <kxs28972@Bayou.UH.EDU> belched forth:

> khannan suntharam <kxs28972@Bayou.UH.EDU> belched forth: > > > > Here's how I classify jungle: > > > > 1) Intelligent - 100% Diva free. > > 2) Shit(e) - Somehow a fuckin Diva made it into the studio and has > > rendered what is otherwise pleasant beatology into a tortured travesty of > > music. (ala Logical Progression)

I understand the opinion of Greg.. but, as he said, sometimes vocals can be used as an instrument when treated correctly. For instance, since we are referring to D&B in this thread, T-Power LipSingJamRing has a vocal in it repeated and redone and I quite like what it does with that track.. although about 5 minutes into it, I wish for a break from it, that doesn't detract that much from the track.. which has been one of my favorite one's from him thusfar... --- FreyGuy <Everyday is FreyDay> LAN Administrator Hansen Corporation / A Minebea Group Company /The cold is telling you that you're alive\ \The night is showing you that you're limited/ KevFrey@evansville.net --------- Kfrey@nyx.net

On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, FreyGuy digitally dumped:

quoted 6 lines be used as an instrument when treated correctly. For instance, since we

> be used as an instrument when treated correctly. For instance, since we > are referring to D&B in this thread, T-Power LipSingJamRing has a vocal > in it repeated and redone and I quite like what it does with that > track.. although about 5 minutes into it, I wish for a break from it, > that doesn't detract that much from the track.. which has been one of my > favorite one's from him thusfar...

Look...there is a vital difference between vocals and singing. What you ask. Hm..well here are some examples- Vocals -Cocteau Twins, Seefeel, etc. (basically unintelligible stuff) Diva - Innercity Life, Vocal Track etc. Okay..no more about this thread! khannan suntharam kxs28972@bayou.uh.edu

In a message dated 10-10-96 16:34:27, you write:

quoted 4 lines Personally I reckon a bit of singing often does wonders for a track

>Personally I reckon a bit of singing often does wonders for a track >i.e. The two Chameleon tracks on Good Looking, erm and loads >of others tracks I can't be bothered to think off. What do other >IDM'ers think of singing on electronic music?

In electronic music, it can be done well, and it should be done more really.. Some of Juan Atkins' best tracks feature his vocals (I See The Light, Pick Up The Flow, No UFOs)..Gerald, Aphex (guest vocals only <bg>) and Kraftwerk spring to mind too, not to mention most old electro, Chicago house and acid. And try and tell me that Qmart by 808 State and Bjork isn't a sublime piece of music! But then, Beastie Boys could make some great records, if it wasn't for their vocals.. Cheerio!

On Sun, 13 Oct 1996 Geotrax1@aol.com wrote:

quoted 5 lines Some of Juan Atkins' best tracks feature his vocals (I See The Light, Pick Up

> Some of Juan Atkins' best tracks feature his vocals (I See The Light, Pick Up > The Flow, No UFOs)..Gerald, Aphex (guest vocals only <bg>) and Kraftwerk > spring to mind too, not to mention most old electro, Chicago house and acid. > And try and tell me that Qmart by 808 State and Bjork isn't a sublime piece > of music!

i couldn't agree more...but i have one question (and i'ts not directed at Geotrax1...) why is bjork the only acceptable vocalist in the idm world? why through this whole 'divas suck!' thread did '...not bjork though, she's great!' pop up more than once? an interesting thought... mbee

On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Michel Battaglia wrote:

quoted 4 lines why is bjork the only acceptable vocalist in the idm world?

> why is bjork the only acceptable vocalist in the idm world? > > why through this whole 'divas suck!' thread did '...not bjork though, > she's great!' pop up more than once?

After I saw that footage of Bjork viciously attacking some random reporter, I decided that criticizing Bjork is a bad, if not deadly, idea. k.s.

On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, khannan suntharam wrote:

quoted 4 lines After I saw that footage of Bjork viciously attacking some random

> After I saw that footage of Bjork viciously attacking some random > reporter, I decided that criticizing Bjork is a bad, if not deadly, idea. > > k.s.

Yeah pretty disturbing ... she said it was due to the fact that the reporter asked her son a question , i.e. invaded his "space" .. pretty valid reason for beating the shit of Mrs.reporter really ... =] ______________________________ \_/ "\/\/\__"\/ "\/ "\/\__"\_/ / / / / / / / / / / / / ' / -= Serkul/CYDoNiA =- / /\/> / / / / / / / / / /__ \__/ \_/\__/\__/\/\/\/\/\/ \/

In a message dated 96-10-11 16:15:42 EDT, you write: << Diva - Innercity Life >> *Groannnn*... Don't remind me. I bought this one. Needless to say I can do without Diva MOANING. Taught me a lesson I thought I knew, don't buy it unless you've heard it first - from a place that will take exchanges - or know someone with good taste that you can trust. There's A LOT of crap out there. I buy most of what I can from HMV - they take exchanges. Saved my butt a few times. I don't know much about Goldie, but I know I don't like this one - howzabout his other stuff? There's a few tracks on the Jungle Sky Comps that have a bit of a Diva thing happening, I don't really mind it at all, it can work to a point. The problem is when you get these Freestyle type (see - played out) DJ's getting their claws on some Drum n' Bass and try to use the style. My .02 Eric