IDM Mailing Archive

On September 9th FreyGuy quoted:

quoted 4 lines "MTV is junk pop culture that tells people who to be, what to like,

>"MTV is junk pop culture that tells people who to be, what to like, >and basically defines who they are. It is for people who need to be told. >Then there are the people who know what is cool and just want you to provide >it. M2 is for those people."

Eric Frans wrote:

quoted 6 lines Even if you don't hear back from them (I'm sure they get loads of e-mail)

>Even if you don't hear back from them (I'm sure they get loads of e-mail) >you can at least voice your appreciation of the show. I sent them an >e-mail a couple days ago and I encourage other fans of the AMP show to do >the same. Maybe if enough people show their support it will push MTV to >continue the show. I'm sure they are probably still debating whether or >not to keep it going or not. Let's try and sway them....

Hello all, It's wonderful (sarcasm here) that MTV executives are aware of how crappy the deal is, but this woman! How does she live with herself?! How condescending to assume that people need to be told how to define themselves! That's not true at all. I don't care how "stupid" people are (or MTV thinks they are), there is no way MTV can justify the claim that they're providing a &^*&@#@ service to the people. If anything, I think it's all the more evil that MTV knows exactly what it is doing. All this while I had the notion that MTV did know, but wasn't quite sure. So, now they want to find another audience to market their goods to (they've realized that there are "intelligent" people in the world that don't appreciate being led by the nose) and so are feeding the pretty little egos of people with more "complex" musical tastes by creating a special channel for them (or special shows). The whole thing is pitiful. People's relationship with music shouldn't be like this. I don't care if MTV tries to impress me with it's airing of obscure videos, it's still MTV. I don't feel comfortable watching a channel based on the sick philosophy that music should be used to provide ready-made identities for those that can't get one on their own. They are not thinking of the music or the artists or the listeners, they are thinking of their pocketbooks. It's great that these videos are being made and also aired to a larger audience, but at what price? Do we really want to encourage MTV to approprate yet another part of culture and water it down? There has to be another way to view these videos that doesn't involve kissing the butts of MTV executives. I don't know, maybe my views are unreasonable, impractical and just plain paranoid, I'm certainly open to criticism. I just don't trust MTV. I don't believe that they have the integrity necessary to promote IDM (or anything, for that matter) in a way that is beneficial for anyone not participating in their little agenda (which includes me). Tiffany

Hello, On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, tiffany wrote:

quoted 4 lines "MTV is junk pop culture that tells people who to be, what to like,

> >"MTV is junk pop culture that tells people who to be, what to like, > >and basically defines who they are. It is for people who need to be told. > >Then there are the people who know what is cool and just want you to provide > >it. M2 is for those people."

(actually she didn't write this part, just quoted it herself) MTV is nothing else than a 24 hours advertising channel. Program and commercial breaks are almost the same and don't think that the "underground" makes any profit out of this. Buisiness as usual! If you want to support majors, fine, buy CD at Blockbuster and watch MTV day and nite but don't complain then about missing innovation, about a dying underground. Buy going to the real underground clubs and by buying vinyl at your local record dealer, you can do something for this scene yourself. It takes some more effort, work and maybe more money but it is worth it!

quoted 6 lines Even if you don't hear back from them (I'm sure they get loads of e-mail)

> >Even if you don't hear back from them (I'm sure they get loads of e-mail) > >you can at least voice your appreciation of the show. I sent them an > >e-mail a couple days ago and I encourage other fans of the AMP show to do > >the same. Maybe if enough people show their support it will push MTV to > >continue the show. I'm sure they are probably still debating whether or > >not to keep it going or not. Let's try and sway them....

so what? After watching some of those Techno-Shows on MTV-Europe and Germans own music channel VIVA I am not interested in those programes anymore. Don't expect much there and prepare for a lot of techno related advertising (CD-sampler, streat-wear, energyser dinks, etc.).

quoted 1 line I don't care how "stupid" people are (or MTV thinks they are),

> I don't care how "stupid" people are (or MTV thinks they are),

at least people are clever enough to buy the advertised products, otherwise there wouldn't be $MTV$.

quoted 3 lines People's relationship with music shouldn't be like this. I don't care if

> > People's relationship with music shouldn't be like this. I don't care if > MTV tries to impress me with it's airing of obscure videos, it's still MTV.

right! :)

quoted 2 lines They are not thinking of the music or the artists or the listeners, they

> They are not thinking of the music or the artists or the listeners, they > are thinking of their pocketbooks.

Sure, what else? Why should that be different?! They arn't a public or independent station.

quoted 5 lines It's great that these videos are being made and also aired to a larger

> It's great that these videos are being made and also aired to a larger > audience, but at what price? Do we really want to encourage MTV to approprate > yet another part of culture and water it down? > There has to be another way to view these videos that doesn't involve > kissing the butts of MTV executives.

I think it should be but I don't know how and why not? Course, making videos costs a lot of money and what is the sense of a video? Selling your music. So probably a distribution of music-videos through our noramal distributors (f.e. Submerge) would be nice but then noone would have money to make videos.

quoted 2 lines I don't know, maybe my views are unreasonable, impractical

> I don't know, maybe my views are unreasonable, impractical > and just plain paranoid,

I agree very much to you. Question: why music videos? Do we neet them? Does this music need videos? Wasn`t Techno (as Disco, House, etc.) about dancing on the dancefloor? I don't know, I think videos can be a great creative addition to the music and some videos show this very impressivly. Generally I don't really need those videos and can do without them. best wishes and no flames please, harald +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | visions and sounds from the wicked world of electronic dance music | | WWW -> http://rave.city.de/wicked | | a servive of http://www.music.city.de and Touch-Net | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+

quoted 2 lines Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:58:03 +0200 (MESZ)

> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:58:03 +0200 (MESZ) > From: Harald Schmitz <qpy320@spf1.power.uni-essen.de>

quoted 9 lines MTV is nothing else than a 24 hours advertising channel. Program and

> MTV is nothing else than a 24 hours advertising channel. Program and > commercial breaks are almost the same and don't think that the > "underground" makes any profit out of this. Buisiness as usual! > If you want to support majors, fine, buy CD at Blockbuster and watch MTV > day and nite but don't complain then about missing innovation, about a > dying underground. Buy going to the real underground clubs and by buying > vinyl at your local record dealer, you can do something for this scene > yourself. It takes some more effort, work and maybe more money but it is > worth it!

Oh, this is just plain silly. These days, vinyl is an elitist medium: very few reasonably priced vinyl decks are available any more and runs of 1000 or so copies can be mastered on CD. Damn, I hate elitism, and this is one of its worst forms. The attitude is: It's "our" music and we don't want the great masses to pollute it. Question: why is "underground" techno better?

quoted 1 line best wishes and no flames please,

> best wishes and no flames please,

Mmm. Andrew.

Hi again, On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Andrew Haley wrote:

quoted 2 lines Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:03:28 +0100

> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:03:28 +0100 > These days, vinyl is an elitist medium:

is it? Still I buy 90% of all my music on vinyl. Why? Well, several reasons. 1. most of my vavourite music is only out on cd. 2. I prefer mixing etc. with vinyl but am willing to change to CD or any other medium as soon as the technique is acceptable.

quoted 1 line very few reasonably priced vinyl decks are available any more

> very few reasonably priced vinyl decks are available any more

really? I saw a lot of bargains for turntables last time in Miami. Cheap ones (good enough for just listening) and a lot of offers for DJ turntables. The price for a technics turntable is somehow high but not much higher as what you would pay for a better CD-player.

quoted 1 line and runs of 1000 or so copies can be mastered on CD.

> and runs of 1000 or so copies can be mastered on CD.

of course they can, but why should they. This music is mainly produced for clubs, for dancing and hardly any techno/house DJ doesn't work with CD's. For the homelisteners with CD Player you have tons of compilations, some good, some bad. And BTW, most techno-labels don't earn much money with their productions! But those people spend all their energy and devotion (and often a lot of their private money) into this music and that's where most of what people call IDM here comes from.

quoted 3 lines Damn, I hate elitism, and this is one of its worst forms. The

> Damn, I hate elitism, and this is one of its worst forms. The > attitude is: It's "our" music and we don't want the great masses to > pollute it.

Elitism is when you keep others out with purpose. It's open to you to get a turntable and buy vinyl and to go to the clubs, to support local rave events etc. It's not elitism, it's your choice!

quoted 1 line Question: why is "underground" techno better?

> Question: why is "underground" techno better?

What is better? At least you there wouldn't be techno without "underground" and without any living "underground" the scene will die sooner or later. You can see that development with a lot of music/youth scenes in the last 50 years. Disco f.e. died because of its mass media exploitation. HipHop stayed alive because of an active "underground". So maybe you should answer the question of better or not yourself. Me myself and I prefer the "underground". take care, harald

On 10-Sep-96, Andrew Haley wrote:

quoted 3 lines Oh, this is just plain silly. These days, vinyl is an elitist medium:

>Oh, this is just plain silly. These days, vinyl is an elitist medium: >very few reasonably priced vinyl decks are available any more and runs >of 1000 or so copies can be mastered on CD.

?? My decks cost £130 each (about $200) which over here, is less than most CD players. I consider vinyl to be the better format: it lasts longer than CD, it's more fun to use :) and it's still the prefered format for DJ's. Now I only buy CDs if it's an album I want to put on and leave on, like Glob Comm or SAW 2. For anything else, it's vinyl all the way. That's not elitist is it? Laters... heatsink@thenet.co.uk NP (on vinyl): "Jericho" - Syzygy

quoted 8 lines From: James Arnold <heatsink@thenet.co.uk>

> From: James Arnold <heatsink@thenet.co.uk> > Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 23:27:07 -0000 > > On 10-Sep-96, Andrew Haley wrote: > > >Oh, this is just plain silly. These days, vinyl is an elitist medium: > >very few reasonably priced vinyl decks are available any more and runs > >of 1000 or so copies can be mastered on CD.

quoted 2 lines ?? My decks cost ?130 each (about $200) which over here, is less

> ?? My decks cost ?130 each (about $200) which over here, is less > than most CD players.

Really? I didn't think that you could get a decent tonearm and cartridge for that, let alone a whole deck.

quoted 1 line I consider vinyl to be the better format: it lasts longer than CD,

> I consider vinyl to be the better format: it lasts longer than CD,

I doubt it. There have been problems with some CDs, but vinyl degrades every time it's played. Vinyl is in the same position now as 78s were around 1960.

quoted 1 line it's more fun to use :) and it's still the prefered format for DJ's.

> it's more fun to use :) and it's still the prefered format for DJ's.

Well, that's up to them: they have very different requirements to those who simply listen for pleasure. Maybe vinyl will continue for a while in specialized applications.

quoted 1 line Now I only buy CDs if it's an album I want to put on and leave on,

> Now I only buy CDs if it's an album I want to put on and leave on,

Which is what most people do with the music that they buy.

quoted 2 lines like Glob Comm or SAW 2. For anything else, it's vinyl all the way.

> like Glob Comm or SAW 2. For anything else, it's vinyl all the way. > That's not elitist is it?

Maybe not. Andrew.

quoted 5 lines I consider vinyl to be the better format: it lasts longer than CD,

> > I consider vinyl to be the better format: it lasts longer than CD, > > I doubt it. There have been problems with some CDs, but vinyl > degrades every time it's played. Vinyl is in the same position now as > 78s were around 1960.

ummm....seee..ok. eat poop. shellac is bigger than you j

quoted 12 lines Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:34:29 -0400 (EDT)

> Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:34:29 -0400 (EDT) > From: jabberwalqee <jts6123@email.unc.edu> > > > > I consider vinyl to be the better format: it lasts longer than CD, > > > > I doubt it. There have been problems with some CDs, but vinyl > > degrades every time it's played. Vinyl is in the same position now as > > 78s were around 1960. > > ummm....seee..ok. eat poop. > shellac is bigger than you > j

What _does_ this mean? I presume that "eat poop" is a school playground retort when you're all out of arguments, but I can't assign an meaning to "shellac is bigger than you". This is becoming the Beavis & Butthead of mailing lists. Andrew.

quoted 10 lines I consider vinyl to be the better format: it lasts longer than CD,

> > > > I consider vinyl to be the better format: it lasts longer than CD, > > > I doubt it. There have been problems with some CDs, but vinyl > > > degrades every time it's played. Vinyl is in the same position now as > > > 78s were around 1960. > > ummm....seee..ok. eat poop. > > shellac is bigger than you > > j > > What _does_ this mean? I presume that "eat poop" is a school > playground retort when you're all out of arguments, but I can't assign

my perceptive pal, there is no argument...cd vs vinyl is so tired here. it eats poop.

quoted 1 line an meaning to "shellac is bigger than you".

> an meaning to "shellac is bigger than you".

78's are made of shellac, disregarding all the fucked up hybrids they tried in the early 50's. dont take everything so seriously knobby knob knob knob joey joe joe joe j np: "heights" advent

Hello, On Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:52:56 +0100, Andrew Haley <aph@cygnus.co.uk> wrote:

quoted 4 lines I consider vinyl to be the better format: it lasts longer than CD,

>> I consider vinyl to be the better format: it lasts longer than CD, > >I doubt it. There have been problems with some CDs, but vinyl >degrades every time it's played.

Yes, BUT vinyl doesn't degrade if it is not played. Whereas (non-gold) CDs and tapes both degrade over time, CDs oxidize and tapes lose their magnetism, both slower or faster depending on storage. Cheers, Ken <*> kstuart@mail.telis.org

Hello,

quoted 8 lines anymore. Don't expect much there and prepare for a lot of techno related

> > anymore. Don't expect much there and prepare for a lot of techno related > > advertising (CD-sampler, streat-wear, energyser dinks, etc.). > > Well what surprised me most was the advertising they did run. > > Some love songs of the 70's comp. CD and some classic rock comp. CD > seemed like a waste of the big bucks the advertisers must have paid. > > And those ads were super long too.

normaly at those times (wasn't the program late, very late at night?), commercials are a lot cheaper. And then, don't forget, that this program fast broadcasted for the first time, so how should there be special advertisings. In the beginning it was like that here in germany (MTV europe and VIVA, the german music channel) but after a while, the advertising breaks get longer and longer and more and more techno-scene related adverts are shown. Today the adverts are mostly for one of those meaningless commercial techno samplers. You could almost say there, that underground techno helps to sell commercial overground techno. Although I wouldn't call the techno of that music TV programs "underground". From inside of the scene it isn't, from the outside it might be.

quoted 3 lines I just hope MTV isn't using the response to the 1-800 number given during

> I just hope MTV isn't using the response to the 1-800 number given during > that commercial to rate the success of AMP.. though I wouldn't be all to > surprised if they were.

Most surveys, company quiz games etc. have the purpose to get a profile of the costumer in order to sell more and more and to get YOUR money for stuff you don't need. take care and best wishes, Harald

As disconcerting as having the heart of commerce and culture ripped out and shown to you still pumping dollars can be, it sure puts things in a perspective the tired old "underground/mainstream" arguments can't touch. For an extra thrill, try looking at TV networks as attention-suppliers for the advertisers, rather than as content-suppliers to viewers, financed by ads. She _did_ say they work within "pop-culture," which may or may not give you a hint at when the next episode of AMP will air.. eric

9/9/96 SS wrote:

quoted 2 lines Hmm so I take it you don't listen to any kind of radio, watch any TV,

>Hmm so I take it you don't listen to any kind of radio, watch any TV, >etc. They are all in the business to make a buck.

I do listen to the radio, watch TV, etc. but I try to support channels that I feel have good intentions. Like college radio, for instance. Okay, I've been known to watch some Highlander episodes, I'm not perfect, but I don't watch things that are pathetic, like MTV Singled Out where typical questions include "Do you prefer brainy or non-brainy? Big breasted or small breasted? Anorexic or Bulemic? Big genitals or small? A small basset hound-like intelligence or slug-like intelligence?" Granted, the AMP show could make up for the quality that is lacking in other shows on MTV, but I don't think it'll work out that way. Just take a look at present day Alternative Nation.

quoted 2 lines If fact you wouldn't have any of the idm music you have now if

>If fact you wouldn't have any of the idm music you have now if >the artists didn't make some kind of money off it to sustain themselves.

Supporting an artist and supporting a huge monoploistic corporation like MTV are two entirely different things. To me, anyway.

quoted 4 lines You

>You >might as well sit there and stare at the wall, but then again the people who >made the paint and cement on that wall were thinking of making a buck when >they made them too.

Hm. Sometimes I prefer staring at the wall to staring at MTV. Especially during that Poe video.

quoted 2 lines I don't get your point that MTV provides ready-made

>I don't get your point that MTV provides ready-made >identities for those that can't get their own...that makes no sense.

I know! That's what I thought (you misunderstood me here), _MTV_ said that was their purpose (to provide ready-made identities). I think it's a condescending and stupid purpose, very different from the purpose of say, an independent or a college radio station or a public access channel.

quoted 3 lines You're

>You're >against someone who hasn't been exposed to IDM and Ambient music seeing Amp >and liking it and purchasing some of the artist's CDs that were on the show?

I'm not against people, I'm against MTV as a governing body of what music we see and hear and how we see and hear it. There is good in many things (and exposure can be one of them in this instance) but sometimes the bad outweighs the good so much that you just have to set priorities. I guess that it's a question of what is more important: quality or quantity, to be simplistic about it. Maybe I just hate Daisy Fuentes too much to see the issue in a clear-headed manner. happy listening, tiffany @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Tiffany A. Johnson (tijohnson@vaxsar.vassar.edu) Art History; major Women's Studies; minor Vassar College Poughkeepsie, New York or Minneapolis, Minnesota @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

quoted 15 lines Oh, this is just plain silly. These days, vinyl is an elitist medium:

>Oh, this is just plain silly. These days, vinyl is an elitist medium: >very few reasonably priced vinyl decks are available any more and runs >of 1000 or so copies can be mastered on CD. > >Damn, I hate elitism, and this is one of its worst forms. The >attitude is: It's "our" music and we don't want the great masses to >pollute it. > >Question: why is "underground" techno better? > >> best wishes and no flames please, > >Mmm. > >Andrew.

Underground techno is better because aboveground techno (at least here in the US) begins with "La Macarena" and ends with whichever 2Unlimited song you'd like to pick (I can't tell them apart.) Even in Europe, I get the impression that the songs that cross over to the mainstream tend to be cheesy, tarted-up vocal versions of what are otherwise cool songs. Am I wrong? Peace, [Home is where the stereo is, unless my turntables get there first!] Currently splitting his time between L.A. and Sausalito, [--------] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--------] [--------] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [--] [---] [---] [--] [---] [---------] can usually be found at one of the following places: aciddrop@mindsphere.com aciddrop@earthlink.net aciddrop@aol.com [actually, don't try this one, I'm never there]

On Wed, 11 Sep 1996 23:27:07 -0000 James Arnold <heatsink@thenet.co.uk> writes:

quoted 4 lines ?? My decks cost =A3130 each (about $200) which over here, is less

>?? My decks cost =A3130 each (about $200) which over here, is less >than = >most CD >players.

WHOAH! 200 bucks? what kind...brand/model/make....last time i looked sl 1200s were running about $475(the absolute best price i could find) here in colorful colorado