IDM Mailing Archive

the ramblings of a tired insomniac: well, I just thought this little scenerio was relevant to the ongoing discussion: I like Moby, as an artist, to some degree, some of his stuff, some, is pretty good. Anyway, I know some of you are scoffing already, but I'll continue. I went to see Moby at Irving Plaza in NYC last summer. Basically ,, he did nothing. If I saw Moby afterwards, I don't know what I could have said. "Go show" or "good job" wouldn't have seemed appropriate. He jumped around stage yelling into a mic for 45 minutes while someone behind and above the audience who we couldn't see, played mixes of his songs. We couldn't here what he was screaming over the music. Before a song he would say "this is hard" or "this is fast". For awhile he played drums, but you couldn't here it anyway. He did play guitar for one song. The most nausiating moment was his Jesus christ pose on top of the keyboard that he had "played". The crowd got excited-they thought he was going to jump in, but he just stood there, with a strobe light behind him, arms raised, for the whole song. I didn't know what to make of this, or what I should have expected. Moby certaintly did create the songs that were played, but it certainly would have been more entertaining to watch him mix themm together, or at least dj something. I didn''t pay 19$ to see Moby dance around. On the other hand I guess I did pay to see Moby, and I don't know what I should have expected. It sucked. Real hard. I guess this is relevant to what everyone is talking about... When you go to "see" a dj/artist what do you go for? I've heard the Prodigy run around on stage like idiots as well. Maybe these aren't good examples. What's my point. hmmm I don't know. Maybe it's just that you have more respect for a dj or an artist depending on what you expect. If you go to hear a dj mix other artists, and he's good at it, then he deserves respect. On the other hand, if you go to see an artist "perform" thier work, and they actually do, they deserve respect. I have no respect for Moby. What should I expect to see when I go to see an artist/dj? I guess, as I've said, it depends on what I went for. But, when I saw Richard James, he just spent the time spinning, an that was good enough. Thus, I must conclude, that it is the individual who is a dj and an artist that deserves the most recognition. To keep the flow going on the dance floor, and to be able to produce some of the tracks that feed it, is a feat indeed. andi

I'm really really glad to see this thread on the list, I wanted to ask about it myself. Recently, I was invited to perform at a concert in the U.K. I turned it down, mainly because I do not want to become a member of the "memorex club": musicians who noodle on a keyboard against a pre-recorded or sequenced background. I hate concerts like this, where the musician(s) don't actually PLAY, the fill in a couple empty spaces, you can't tell which is live and which is memorex and I'm positive some of the time they are lip-syncing with their fingers. I don't go to concerts because this is always what it's like. I do not mean to insult the musicians on this list who do this. I understand that it is commonplace and an accepted method of performance. But since the message about this topic expressed his disappointment in attending a concert like this I am curious to know how others of you feel about it. Please feel free to email me privately. Regards, Jan Jan Hanford - jan@shelby.com Walter Shelby Group Ltd. - Internet Software Developers C o r p o r a t e W e b P a g e - http://www.shelby.com/pub/shelby/ P e r s o n a l W e b P a g e - http://www.tile.net/jan/

On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, Jan Hanford wrote:

quoted 4 lines Recently, I was invited to perform at a concert in the U.K. I turned

> Recently, I was invited to perform at a concert in the U.K. I turned > it down, mainly because I do not want to become a member of the > "memorex club": musicians who noodle on a keyboard against a > pre-recorded or sequenced background.

Ah, the prejudices of the old. Remember, its 1996. Che

| [...] I do not want to become a member of the "memorex club": | musicians who noodle on a keyboard against a pre-recorded or | sequenced background. | | I hate concerts like this, where the musician(s) don't actually | PLAY, [...] | | I do not mean to insult the musicians on this list who do this. | I understand that it is commonplace and an accepted method of | performance. I believe that it depends a great deal on the composition. I really experienced the difference in 1988 when I saw what I consider to be two extremes of the spectrum in live performances of instrumental electronic listening music. First was Tangerine Dream. Each of the three performers had an Atari computer monitor behind them facing the audience. The timing was perfect, you couldn't always tell what they were playing, except the songs with guitar, but this is how TaDream's music is supposed to be. I had no complaints because it worked for them. Next was Yanni - and before everybody pukes, this guy used to have a lot of punch in his music, even if he is now the icon of mushy newage. Even though Yanni's music was composed in a studio and recorded completely in the digital domain, the emotional energy demanded live musicians. The 1988 concert had a live drummer, and two very competent keyboardists who learned his music for the tour. This four piece played off of each other - the music was dynamic - each player could look at the other musician and they could adjust the tempo. I really saw the contrast because Yanni's music was not like Tangerine Dream's, except that both bands are electronic instrumental. The next concert I saw with Yanni had an even larger ensemble of very talented musicians. I wouldn't want Tangerine Dream to attempt this, because I don't feel that it suits the style of their compositions. So to make my point: It is not inherently bad to sequence or sync to material on tape unless the only motivation is laziness. If a musician is on a budget and can't afford backup, or the players are too lazy to learn to play everything live, then this will be negative. But if the compositions are fitting for mechanical performance, then it would actually be a mistake to have someone try to perform certain parts live. Toby Marks' concert here as Banco de Gaia was pure listening pleasure because of the excellent four channel system with stereo subs. It was more important to hear how the piece was mixed on a sound system that only about 0.01% of us would ever have in our home or dance club. But the final choice is up to you as the composer. If you do not want to perform your music because you would be forced to use tape accompaniment, then I congratulate you for sticking with your personal quality ethic. Whenever you do finally work out a way to appear in public without sacrificing your standards, I am sure that the audience will appreciate the music much more than if you didn't hold out for your best. Brian

The things that deter me from playing live mainly have to do with not wanting to drag sensitive computer equipment around, have it shaken about by giant speakers, beer spilled on it, questionable AC power, etc. Additionally, most of my music is created in and of the studio, out of many finely-tuned and interlocking parts. Such material would not translate well into live performance. Certain things need to be plugged into other things, and plugged into completely different things for the next track. The best case would be a poor live mix, or playing a DAT and ocassionally stepping up to the mic to vocalize. Not a show I would want to see, and therefore not one I'd want to perform. I also have a few compositions that are really methods for creating closely-related pieces of music. One uses several dozen samples of feedback, some with additional analog and/or digital processing. The player (me) chooses how long to wait before triggering the next sound, chosen from the next group of 2 or 3 sounds. I control the trajectory, but by design cannot control the fine details. The method enforces a structure. The composition makes very noisy and unusually atonal ambience. If anyone has suggestions for the type of venue where this kind of thing would work, please let me know. Performing this in a chill-out room could wig someone out in a bad way... I've still been rather indifferent to the idea of performing live. Even Masami Akita of Merzbow, one of the most-respected noise acts in Japan, will only attract an audience of about 30 people for a live show. Here's something to look at: http://www.ccs.nslsilus.org/~mkolmar/chaotic.html You'll need a CD drive and have to get a helper app. There's a pointer to the place where you can download the helper app. As the page says, you supply the CD, this will trash it for you. Currently there are 3 methods of CD deconstruction on the page, probably more to follow. Perhaps a little sketchy, but as far as I know, they are the only musical compositions (if the term doesn't bother you) in existence written for solo, computer-controlled CD player. Novel if nothing else. An indicator of the musical universe I inhabit... --MK On Sat, 17 Feb 1996, Brian Willoughby wrote:

quoted 15 lines | [...] I do not want to become a member of the "memorex club":

> | [...] I do not want to become a member of the "memorex club": > | musicians who noodle on a keyboard against a pre-recorded or > | sequenced background. > | > | I hate concerts like this, where the musician(s) don't actually > | PLAY, [...] > > I believe that it depends a great deal on the composition. > > But the final choice is up to you as the composer. If you do not want to > perform your music because you would be forced to use tape accompaniment, then > I congratulate you for sticking with your personal quality ethic. Whenever > you do finally work out a way to appear in public without sacrificing your > standards, I am sure that the audience will appreciate the music much more > than if you didn't hold out for your best.

On Sat, 17 Feb 1996, Mark Kolmar wrote:

quoted 4 lines I've still been rather indifferent to the idea of performing live. Even

> I've still been rather indifferent to the idea of performing live. Even > Masami Akita of Merzbow, one of the most-respected noise acts in Japan, > will only attract an audience of about 30 people for a live show. >

You've been seeing him at the wrong venues then. When I saw Merzbow live in Seattle the place was packed. Easily 200 or more people in a tiny club. Don't let a percieved lack of interest in the noise scene deter you from performing. ObIDM: Can anyone recommend any good noise/dance music? Nurse With Wound's Rock 'n Roll station is excellent, but I'd be more interested in hearing something like Merzbow meets Aphex Twin, or Whitehouse meets the KLF. Jeff --------------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey G Reid jgreid@u.washington.edu --------------------------------------------------------------- "O holy mathematics, may I for the rest of my days be consoled by perpetual intercourse with you, consoled for the wickedness of man and the injustice of the Almighty!" -- Isidore Ducasse

On Sat, 17 Feb 1996, Jeffrey Reid wrote:

quoted 3 lines ObIDM: Can anyone recommend any good noise/dance music? Nurse With

> ObIDM: Can anyone recommend any good noise/dance music? Nurse With > Wound's Rock 'n Roll station is excellent, but I'd be more interested in > hearing something like Merzbow meets Aphex Twin, or Whitehouse meets the KLF.

I'm working on it... That kind of experimental/IDM crossover is something I'd like to hear too. It's an underexplored area which I'll continue to poke around in. You might check into the Wir/H30 12" on Touch. It sounds a little like the beat-driven track from _One Dozen Ecomomical Stories_, but more herky-jerky. Not the best one could hope for, but it points in an intriguing direction. Some of the heavily-overdriven stuff Jeff Mills has done in the past may qualify. Good example would be one of the tracks from the X-103 _Thera_ EP on Axis. The name escapes me. Perhaps "Eruption"? Merzbow also has a couple tracks with a kind of beat. For example the track from the _Land of the Rising Noise_ comp, and 1st track on _Music for Bondage Performance_. Also some other tracks have more circular patterns, such as side 1 of _Dadarottenvator_ or the "Music from 'The Dead Man2'" 7". I also heard about (but have not heard) a recent/upcoming track on a 4-artist 7" which has a bit of a beat to it. --Mark PS re: Merzbow. He made it to the West coast a few months ago, but I'm near Chicago. Last time he played here would probably have been before I discovered Merzbow. And if anyone from the Chicago area can suggest a venue for an evening of difficult music, please do.

On Sat, 17 Feb 1996, Jeffrey Reid wrote:

quoted 4 lines ObIDM: Can anyone recommend any good noise/dance music? Nurse With

> > ObIDM: Can anyone recommend any good noise/dance music? Nurse With > Wound's Rock 'n Roll station is excellent, but I'd be more interested in > hearing something like Merzbow meets Aphex Twin, or Whitehouse meets the KLF.

Vivenza (are they still active?) was rather interesting. Very Noisy. Very Beaty. jmar! | J M R T N K O | fonstrosities and other toys by ILLGBLITY ENGNRING. | | D S G N E T C | JOHN-A MARTINKO, w. desk chief martinko@netcom.com |

quoted 2 lines Vivenza (are they still active?) was rather interesting. Very Noisy. Very

> Vivenza (are they still active?) was rather interesting. Very Noisy. Very > Beaty.

Scratch that. I meant to say Esplendor Geometrico, with full AFX elephant farts and all. I saw something from them within the last year or so, so I think they're still active, but I don't remember what label they're primarily on now. jmar? | J M R T N K O | fonstrosities and other toys by ILLGBLITY ENGNRING. | | D S G N E T C | JOHN-A MARTINKO, w. desk chief martinko@netcom.com |

On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, Lazlo Nibble wrote:

quoted 7 lines Personally, I don't see much point in paying big bucks to (essentially)

> Personally, I don't see much point in paying big bucks to (essentially) > just be in the same room as an artist, if that artist isn't doing much of > anything but playing a DAT of his or her music. Either get up there and > actually perform some music or come down and hobnob with the proles, but > please don't take my hard-earned money and proceed to spend forty-five > minutes pretending you're a member of Grand Funk Railroad lip-syncing > "Closer To Home" on American Bandstand...

I like music that can't be "played" by human beings, so uh, wots the point in the artist "playing" the music live if "playing" it means watering it down? Maybe someone out there knows a Buddy Rich type who can "play" drumNbass for two hours at a time? I don't think so. Anyway, the timing wouldn't be precise enough. Playing "live" is increasingly loozing its meaning. So what if the "artist" plays a DAT, so long as it's something that you haven't heard before and the bass is orders of magnitude louder than you can get at home and you're dancing w/ people who are also enjoying the music? Is there some sort of majickal aura about a person placing their hands on a keyboard and playing "live"? What if its a mixingboard? Is one more important than the other? Who even cares if someones on stage if the light show is cool? Why, oh why Lazlo, are you comparing today's music to Grand Funk Railroad? That was 20 years ago - as I said, it's 1996. Quit applying these 1976 attitudes. Che Hope this is substantive enough for you Lazlo, and apologies to those who find the spelling out of the obvious to be tedious.

Che wrote:

quoted 10 lines Maybe someone out there knows a Buddy Rich type who can "play" drumNbass

> Maybe someone out there knows a Buddy Rich type who can "play" drumNbass > for two hours at a time? I don't think so. Anyway, the timing wouldn't > be precise enough. > > Playing "live" is increasingly loozing its meaning. So what if the > "artist" plays a DAT, so long as it's something that you haven't heard > before and the bass is orders of magnitude louder than you can get at > home and you're dancing w/ people who are also enjoying the music? Is > there some sort of majickal aura about a person placing their hands on a > keyboard and playing "live"? What if its a mixingboard?

I think that Uwe Schmidt (Atom Heart) has the right idea for his setup - he uses some kind of Akai multitrack unit or sampler with material prepared in advance and then "mixes" the different elements of the tracks live. Then in between songs he has a CD with interlude-type material which he plays while he loads the next sequence on his machine. It seems to be an ideal solution for someone who doesn't want to bring all of their gear along to gigs but wants to be more creative than just playing a DAT. This would work really well for drum&bass - you could have the keyboard parts sequenced and then just mix in different beats as you go. GD