IDM Mailing Archive

At 01:43 PM 1/1/96 -0500, Ryan G. Pals wrote:

quoted 17 lines Without meaning to dis GD in particular, I'd just like to address his

>>>> >Without meaning to dis GD in particular, I'd just like to address his >statement re. jungle's supposedly "more" complex rhythms -- this is a >cliche that's oft repeated, but seldom questioned. >So, *what* exactly are jungle rhythms more complex than? ><<< > >The "complex" rhythms bit is kind of silly. People just say jungle's >got a complex rhythm cos they feel it's too fast and too layered >to dance to. Isn't that silly? > >If more jungle would really work at creating complex rhythms instead >of sampling a few records and layering the effects the genre would >have moved forward a long time ago. Amen ragga got boring, now >there's the hip hop style. Eh... > >Anyway, I completely agreed with the above quoted post.

Fuck yeah. Kraftwerk was just twisting knobs, too. I think it's great that artists such as Autechre and Single Cell Orchestra (et al, of course) have discovered that combining a Drum Machine with a suitably arranged delay pedal can give a loop that satisfies the doubletime jones I have acquired through listening to Jungle. Oh yeah, the 606 on mode 2 is a wonderment in itself. Fuck! Shit! 32nd notes! It ain't Jungle though. Jungle is cutting breaks. I've never heard that cliche mentioned about complexity, but that's not what Jungle's project is. Jungle's _intense_, not complex. I wonder how much Jungle Ryan has listened to to feel he is capable of providing an authoritative overview of what it is working toward to someone who doesn't know. I mean, it WAS an honest question, right? eh onnow: Four Eyes - Electro Acid Dub II

Thu, 4 Jan 1996 08:58:39 -0800 (PST) Jon Drukman said:

quoted 4 lines the first whiny trainspotterish cavemen were sitting

> the first whiny trainspotterish cavemen were sitting > off to the side having arguments over whether it was jungle or trip > hop. (and whether or not a stretched antelope skin was a better acid > sound than a buffalo hide.)

Just a nitpicky semantic correction... the first acid sounds were from stretched *deer* and antelope (come on Jon, you know the song... "where the deer and the antelope play".) The T.Buff 303 wasn't even developed until well after the Louisiana Purchase, due to the fact that the technology was part of the deal with France. I digress. Teep

quoted 1 line Fuck yeah. Kraftwerk was just twisting knobs, too.

>Fuck yeah. Kraftwerk was just twisting knobs, too.

Just twisting a knob could be said of 90% of dance music out there. In fact, that's what acid is about now, isn't it? :)

quoted 5 lines I think it's great that artists such as Autechre and Single Cell Orchestra

>I think it's great that artists such as Autechre and Single Cell Orchestra >(et al, of course) have discovered that combining a Drum Machine with a >suitably arranged delay pedal can give a loop that satisfies the doubletime >jones I have acquired through listening to Jungle. Oh yeah, the 606 on mode >2 is a wonderment in itself. Fuck! Shit! 32nd notes!

I think that the recent trend of not using 4/4 beats is a good thing. I loved the recent Single Cell Orchestra album (but not because of it's beats) and I'll probably love the new Autechre, but...

quoted 3 lines It ain't Jungle though. Jungle is cutting breaks. I've never heard that

>It ain't Jungle though. Jungle is cutting breaks. I've never heard that >cliche mentioned about complexity, but that's not what Jungle's project is. >Jungle's _intense_, not complex.

No, it isn't jungle. I don't think your definition is a good one either. I've heard that comment of the "complexity" too many times to count, from the recent induction of "junglists" to the real headz who've been buying vinyl since '90 and got sick of the 4/4 beat. If someone asked me what IDM is, I'd play an Aphex Twin record. I'd play a Krome & Time record if someone asked me what jungle is. Heck, that 12" I bought in '92 by Terry and Bernard was jungle.

quoted 3 lines I wonder how much Jungle Ryan has listened to to feel he is capable of

>I wonder how much Jungle Ryan has listened to to feel he is capable of >providing an authoritative overview of what it is working toward to someone >who doesn't know. I mean, it WAS an honest question, right?

Since you asked (not so nicely), I was buying hardcore and records back in '91 all the way til early '95. My tastes have changed immensely, but I still tried to keep tabs on things until jungle just got so boring. Do you really think it's "complex" to use the same drum samples and just layer them in a different way each time? Sick of what I was hearing I gave away a good bit of records (a lot of classics few people on this list would know of ;/ ) and my turntable finally dying is what made me get rid of everything else, excluding a few choice cd's. I haven't bought a jungle record since Gerald's, and I'm not planning on it unless something comes out I just can't live without. I can't say a thing about what jungle is in 1996, but I know what it was in '91. Do you remember a few people several years ago who brought up the subject of jungle on this list? They talked about those "intelligent" records from Reinforced and Metalheads, Moving Shadow and the like. They were told to take their "chipmunk happy hardcore" elsewhere. Well, I was one of those people who got flames telling me that hardcore couldn't possibly be worthy of discussing on this list. Wasn't fun then. Getting flamed for a different opinion isn't fun now either. By the way, jungle isn't all that intense either, as one of Reinforced's double packs was THE chill out slammer. Smooth drum & bass tracks with lovely atmospheres. But we called it drum & bass. Should have called it "Intelligent Jungle" and maybe you would have listened then. ;( I could really go for a Jon Drukman "jungle sucks" post right about now. Bandwagons and attitudes suck. Peace & lovism to those who know.

Ryan G. Pals writes:

quoted 1 line I could really go for a Jon Drukman "jungle sucks" post right about now.

> I could really go for a Jon Drukman "jungle sucks" post right about now.

ok, here we go... ahem. *hrrraaaccckkkk* jungle su... nah, can't do it. why beat a dead horse? jungle and trip hop are two of the stupidest terms ever made up mainly because they are barely genres in their own right. as ryan pointed out, there's a whole legacy of happy hardcore/fast break stuff - when did it suddenly become jungle? or drum 'n' bass for that matter... when does hiphop/rap become trip hop? answer: when it becomes convenient from a marketing perspective. listen to the first track on public enemy's "fear of a black planet" - it's called "contract on the world love jam" and it came out in 1988... and there is absolutely no difference between it and any of a million records on mowax except that it's way better. there seems to be some basic human desire to want to categorize stuff. it probably stems from caveman times when the first categories were invented: "stuff that you can eat" and "stuff that will kill you if you eat it" (and the ever-popular "stuff that will kill you and eat you if you turn your back on it"). i'm sure when our ancestors were banging on rocks the first whiny trainspotterish cavemen were sitting off to the side having arguments over whether it was jungle or trip hop. (and whether or not a stretched antelope skin was a better acid sound than a buffalo hide.) it's built into us, but we're modern guys, let's try to overcome it. this is 1996 for chrissake, let's get over the label thing. put down that rock, put down that jawbone... let's talk music!! and speaking of genre-busting toonz, i finally found a copy of renegade soundwave "the next chapter in dub" and it was worth the wait. electro, funk, dub and a whole bunch of weird noises thrown into a highly rhythmic blender. slammin'.

quoted 1 line I think that the recent trend of not using 4/4 beats is a good thing.

> I think that the recent trend of not using 4/4 beats is a good thing.

just a nitpicky semantic correction... jungle is 4/4, but it's not 4 on the floor... /j/