IDM Mailing Archive

> Out of a 10, I'd give this comp a 9. The book and the artwork > pushed it up a bit. It looks like an ambitious project, and for me, their > efforts paid off(for me, at least!) Can't wait for Volume Two! Next time, > pleazzzzze press at least a limited quantity on vinyl!!!Geezzz! It was released on limited vinyl. Only had about 4 or 5 tracks on it, though, sold as a 12". Still loads kicking around London at the moment. However, am I wrong in thinking that "Goa" trance doesn't really come under the banner of IDM? A little question for all you cabaret voltaire spotters out there - I have a mixtape bought from a nice travveling person a few years ago, and it has three tracks by cab volt on it - "Deeptime", "Back to Brazilia" and "cooled out". From where do these tracks come from, and how old are they? Sure are beautiful. Cheers, Catweasel. "To find your mind, you have to lose it first"

On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Jon ROSS wrote:

quoted 2 lines However, am I wrong in thinking that "Goa" trance doesn't

> However, am I wrong in thinking that "Goa" trance doesn't > really come under the banner of IDM?

Yeah, I agree - IMO, Goa isn't 'intelligent', in the same way that stuff by Hardfloor and their ilk isn't really talked about on this list. If I was being kind, I'd say that Goa trance is just dance music (breakdowns and bubbling analogue riffs are kind of standard for dance music) without any real thought or innovation behind it. If I was being unkind, I'd say that it's mindless, unoriginal cack - Harthouse were doing this stuff back in 93. And it was shit then as well. And I *hate* UV paint :) IMHO, of course. || [CiM] || s.walley@uea.ac.uk || http://www.sys.uea.ac.uk/~u9323899/

quoted 11 lines However, am I wrong in thinking that "Goa" trance doesn't

> > However, am I wrong in thinking that "Goa" trance doesn't > > really come under the banner of IDM? > > Yeah, I agree - IMO, Goa isn't 'intelligent', in the same way that stuff > by Hardfloor and their ilk isn't really talked about on this list. If I > was being kind, I'd say that Goa trance is just dance music (breakdowns > and bubbling analogue riffs are kind of standard for dance music) without > any real thought or innovation behind it. > If I was being unkind, I'd say that it's mindless, > unoriginal cack - Harthouse were doing this stuff back in 93. And it was > shit then as well. And I *hate* UV paint :)

Well, I knew I would get some opposition to my "goa" posts, and it finally happened! I don't care what anyone says, I love it, and couldn't wait for the scene to blossom as it did. I still don't like HARDFLOOR, and the formula of 303's and high-velocity BPM dance music. The way Hardfloor made it in '93 was "formulaic" and it still is. The difference with goa is in the arrangement and the instruments used. What makes a track "intelligent"? The sampled use of scientists' talking about the cerebral meningitis of the beat? What's the difference between early Black Dog, and some of the tracks on the Dragonfly Comp. DRAGONFLY TRANCE:PROJECT 2, other than the obvious...It's still dark, they're breakbeats, it's arranged in a goth-like manner, and it's for the head. I certainly hope those of you who bash "goa" trance, have your facts in order, and have listened to some of the early "goa" stuff, and not the stuff that has just came out. I would never bash anyone about something unless I know what the hell I'm talking about, and have listened carefully with an open mind. Not all "goa" trance sounds like your Hardfloors, Eat Statics', and others...Know what you say before you say it. Derek Jordan

On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Derek Jordan wrote:

quoted 2 lines The way

> The way > Hardfloor made it in '93 was "formulaic" and it still is.

Agreed. I wasn't linking Hardfloor to Goa - I was just saying that IMO, both Hardfloor and Goa make music for the floor rather than the head and as such, maybe they should be discussed on another list.

quoted 2 lines The difference

> The difference > with goa is in the arrangement and the instruments used.

Okay - but from what GT I've heard, there is a *lot* of filter-tweaking, opening that cut-off as the bars progress, rolling those snares, that type of thing. This has been done to death IMO, and is neither interesting nor innovative - two things that make me want to get up and shake my butt.

quoted 5 lines What makes a track "intelligent"? The sampled use of scientists' talking ab

> What makes a track "intelligent"? The sampled use of scientists' talking about the cerebral > meningitis of the beat? What's the difference between early Black Dog, > and some of the tracks on the Dragonfly Comp. DRAGONFLY TRANCE:PROJECT 2, > other than the obvious...It's still dark, they're breakbeats, it's > arranged in a goth-like manner, and it's for the head.

I've not heard the Dragonfly comp. but the Black Dog comparison is pushing it - BDP were always innovating; each release calmly stuck two fingers up to any conventions that existed - dancefloor mechanics being one of these. Goa is for dancing, yeah? Unlike techno, it doesn't push any new boundaries, rather it gives people want they want (rushing snares, rushing analogue riffs). IMO, this is inexcusable in modern electronic music. It's lazy, it's thoughtless, it's mindless.

quoted 1 line Know what you say before you say it.

> Know what you say before you say it.

Derek, I've been to a number of trance nights, mainly because they were being advertised as trance/techno events. I turned up expecting a bit of UK techno, a bit of Euro trance/techno and a smattering of US techno if I was lucky. What I got was Harthouse circa 93 - that's not good. I respect your opinion Derek - all I'm saying is that IMO, Goa doesn't fulfill any requirements of being 'intelligent' (yeah, I know it's a dodgy term - I take it to mean innovation; something that rather than giving people what they want or expect, gives them something they didn't know they wanted, something that might well be danceable, but that triggers thought, that triggers emotion). Having said that, I have no real problem with it being discussed. But the minute that there are more Goa posts than IDM posts, I'm outta here. || [CiM] || s.walley@uea.ac.uk || http://www.sys.uea.ac.uk/~u9323899/

quoted 3 lines Agreed. I wasn't linking Hardfloor to Goa - I was just saying that IMO,

> Agreed. I wasn't linking Hardfloor to Goa - I was just saying that IMO, > both Hardfloor and Goa make music for the floor rather than the head and > as such, maybe they should be discussed on another list.

Why? The initial tracks that came out on Dragonfly were just as "cerebral"(for lack of a better word) as the AI series! Granted you can't dance to most of the AI tracks at the time, but Dragonfly Trance 2 & AI had somewhat similar dispositions. The sounds were innovative, and were in the process to "wave the rave goodbye" (Silent Phase). Ok, you have a legit beef, but those who ask questions like, "what the hell is goa?" need to be answered, and as a punter/buyer of music in the IDM vein as well as "psyche... trance", I can offer a review. There is a delete key you can use for reviews of goa posts, too, ya know.

quoted 7 lines I've not heard the Dragonfly comp. but the Black Dog comparison is

> I've not heard the Dragonfly comp. but the Black Dog comparison is > pushing it - BDP were always innovating; each release calmly stuck two > fingers up to any conventions that existed - dancefloor mechanics being > one of these. Goa is for dancing, yeah? Unlike techno, it doesn't push > any new boundaries, rather it gives people want they want (rushing > snares, rushing analogue riffs). IMO, this is inexcusable in modern > electronic music. It's lazy, it's thoughtless, it's mindless.

You're absolutely right. But I must emphasize that "smart" listeners go to "the source", and judge it from that point, not on the material currently burning dancefloors at the moment. How could I talk about the polyrhythmics of Black Dog, or B12, based just on their latest 12'' on GPR, Warp, or A.R.T.? Once you hear a decent track, you go back to when they began to listen to how they have progressed. That's what I do, anyway.

quoted 4 lines Derek, I've been to a number of trance nights, mainly because they were

> Derek, I've been to a number of trance nights, mainly because they were > being advertised as trance/techno events. I turned up expecting a bit of > UK techno, a bit of Euro trance/techno and a smattering of US techno if I > was lucky. What I got was Harthouse circa 93 - that's not good.

No, it isn't. Perhaps you need a chap like myself to DJ. I can assure you that I play a wide variety of "out there" or "music that makes you think" material. I am just as picky about my music as you are, but openmindedness is what is needed in order for artists to be more original and for clubbers/listeners to buy more "out there" stuff.

quoted 2 lines Having said that, I have no real problem with it being discussed. But the

> Having said that, I have no real problem with it being discussed. But the > minute that there are more Goa posts than IDM posts, I'm outta here.

I'll be right behind you...All I'll be doing in the next month or so is simply reviewing some of the stuff I have, that I think might me worth someones time and money(we all don't just dole out import money, ya know!) As I'm sure everyone knows, I don't just listen to goa!!!! If you don't like the reviews, hit the "D" key(If you're using Pine 3.91), and if it tickles you to buy it, I'd like feedback. That's all. Where would Black Dog(and now Plaid) be had it not been for 1 gal/guy that posted a review of it because it was so far out in leftfield, and everyone dismissed it as a "souless, faceless, electronic music"...Think about that. --I'll tone it down a bit, though.-- Derek Jordan Next up:A review of the TIP compilations.

quoted 6 lines However, am I wrong in thinking that "Goa" trance doesn't

> > However, am I wrong in thinking that "Goa" trance doesn't > > really come under the banner of IDM? > > Yeah, I agree - IMO, Goa isn't 'intelligent', in the same way that stuff > by Hardfloor and their ilk isn't really talked about on this list. If I >

I follow this list and I've bought a ton of stuff that got good reviews here. And a lot of it ends up in my "hardly ever played" pile. Yep, I'll even agree it is of high quality, but its like "too" intelligent, a lot of the stuff just doesn't *move* me. But junk like Kaos, Concepts in Dance 2, and Trance Raver are bolted down on my player. - my 2 cents - greg s.

On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, greg strockbine wrote:

quoted 4 lines I follow this list and I've bought a ton of stuff that got good reviews

> I follow this list and I've bought a ton of stuff that got good reviews > here. And a lot of it ends up in my "hardly ever played" pile. Yep, > I'll even agree it is of high quality, but its like "too" intelligent, a > lot of the stuff just doesn't *move* me.

I agree - there's a lot of IDM out there that is intricate and clever, but also introspective and narrow-minded. Find the balance though, and it it just clicks. Detroit techno is a good example - here is a form of music that not only satisfies emotionally but also kicks like anything. Put Model 500s _Starlight_ on; intricate chords, meandering bass, otherworldy moods - all of these make for an emotional, listenable record. And underpinning it all is this mad funked-up beat. I start grinning and nodding whenever I hear this track - here's something that makes me dance and think simulataneously. Goa trance has everything in place - it just seems to lack that care and thought that makes me sit-up and take interest - it lacks innovation and I find that unforgivable in a music form that by it's very essence, is innovative.

quoted 3 lines But junk like Kaos, Concepts in

> But junk like Kaos, Concepts in > Dance 2, and Trance Raver are bolted down on my player. > - my 2 cents

Fair enough - I must admit that I often drag out the Prodigys' _What Evil Lurks EP_ when I'm feeling all ravey... :) I'm not against Goa - I think almost all the people on this list have relatively good taste in music. I just *personally* think it is not particularly suitable - like Gabber, like house, like ambient (which is the term 'intelligent' taken to it's extreme), like country n'bloody western. Am I wrong? Am I right? || [CiM] || s.walley@uea.ac.uk || http://www.sys.uea.ac.uk/~u9323899/

quoted 12 lines However, am I wrong in thinking that "Goa" trance doesn't

>> > However, am I wrong in thinking that "Goa" trance doesn't >> > really come under the banner of IDM? >> >> Yeah, I agree - IMO, Goa isn't 'intelligent', in the same way that stuff >> by Hardfloor and their ilk isn't really talked about on this list. If I >> > >I follow this list and I've bought a ton of stuff that got good reviews >here. And a lot of it ends up in my "hardly ever played" pile. Yep, >I'll even agree it is of high quality, but its like "too" intelligent, a >lot of the stuff just doesn't *move* me. But junk like Kaos, Concepts in >Dance 2, and Trance Raver are bolted down on my player.

I found out that goa wears out realy quickly while 'realy high quality', when played and LISTENED to, have much more impact. I used to keep the goa compilations I got from my paper but after a while it bored me to death, now I get rid of most of it but record a track or two from each that I realy liked. My guess is that in a few months I'll erase those too. snow

Yes, they are beautiful. All 3 songs are from CV's "Plasticity" lp. Released on Plastex in uk, and Instinct in us. Snag it if you find it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ''J''O''H''N'''''''R''I''C''K''M''A''N'''''''''''''''''''''''' jknee@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Jon ROSS wrote:

quoted 6 lines A little question for all you cabaret voltaire spotters out there -

> > A little question for all you cabaret voltaire spotters out there - > I have a mixtape bought from a nice travveling person a few years > ago, and it has three tracks by cab volt on it - "Deeptime", "Back > to Brazilia" and "cooled out". From where do these tracks come > from, and how old are they? Sure are beautiful.

quoted 5 lines It was released on limited vinyl. Only had about 4 or 5 tracks on

> It was released on limited vinyl. Only had about 4 or 5 tracks on > it, though, sold as a 12". Still loads kicking around London at the > moment. However, am I wrong in thinking that "Goa" trance doesn't > really come under the banner of IDM? >

Why do you not think goa trance is "IDM"? What (in your opinion) is "goa trance"?? Unintelligent? However cheesy, this shit does what it's supposed to do! So it doesn't have the meditative repetitiveness of Basic Channel, or the intricate patterns of Black Dog/Plaid/Repeat, but, most trip-trap that passes for IDM these days doesn't do as much head damage as "goa". I still love IDM groups, but "goa trance" has to be the most overlooked scene as of late, and is just as melodic as any other group discussed on this list. Let me know what ya think, we can go hedz up and chat about it, matey! Derek Jordan

quoted 12 lines However, am I wrong in thinking that "Goa" trance doesn't

> > However, am I wrong in thinking that "Goa" trance doesn't > > really come under the banner of IDM? > > > Why do you not think goa trance is "IDM"? What (in your opinion) is "goa > trance"?? Unintelligent? However cheesy, this shit does what it's > supposed to do! So it doesn't have the meditative repetitiveness of > Basic Channel, or the intricate patterns of Black Dog/Plaid/Repeat, but, > most trip-trap that passes for IDM these days doesn't do as much head > damage as "goa". I still love IDM groups, but "goa trance" has to be the > most overlooked scene as of late, and is just as melodic as any other > group discussed on this list. > Let me know what ya think, we can go hedz up and chat about it, matey!

Oh, don't get me wrong. I fucking love goa, I go to RTTS a lot, in fact there is one here this Saturday in Paris, so there. The music is great for going ballistic to when you're in a crowd full of psychadelic nutters, that is what makes the music work - the crowd that goes with it. Without the party atmosphere, I find the music rather uninspiring. It is just in a completely different genre to the charter of the IDM list. It is music for dancing to, and IDM, IMHO, is primarily for listening to (Bit of a generalisation, I know. I have danced my tits off to R.H. Kirk many a time) Maybe someone should start a goa mailing list, cos the way it is booming in the UK at the moment, it would be quite popular. Adios, Catweasel. "To find your mind, you have to lose it first"

On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Jon ROSS wrote:

quoted 2 lines Maybe someone should start a goa mailing list, cos the way it is

> Maybe someone should start a goa mailing list, cos the way it is > booming in the UK at the moment, it would be quite popular.

Correct me if necessary, but isn't there a trance mailing list now? Goa stuff would be on-charter there, right? on now: Rob Hood "Nighttime World" ----------------------------------------------------------------- dave walker, detroit art services marmoset@conch.aa.msen.com phat phorest phires <A HREF="http://www.msen.com/~marmoset/">Dave Walker</A>

quoted 4 lines It is just in a completely different genre to the charter of the

> It is just in a completely different genre to the charter of the > IDM list. It is music for dancing to, and IDM, IMHO, is primarily for > listening to (Bit of a generalisation, I know. I have danced my > tits off to R.H. Kirk many a time)

What is out in the UK at the moment IS for dancing--mainly. There are tracks for the head as well. Don't be surprised when these "goa supergroups" come out with something in the IDM vein, and it crops up again. I've created a monster... Derek Jordan

quoted 6 lines Maybe someone should start a goa mailing list, cos the way it is

> Maybe someone should start a goa mailing list, cos the way it is > booming in the UK at the moment, it would be quite popular. > Adios, > Catweasel. > "To find your mind, you have to lose it first" >

quoted 4 lines What is out in the UK at the moment IS for dancing--mainly. There are

>What is out in the UK at the moment IS for dancing--mainly. There are >tracks for the head as well. Don't be surprised when these "goa >supergroups" come out with something in the IDM vein, and it crops up >again. I've created a monster...

The monster realy is the tracks for the head. Those are the real reason not to take the goa too seriously, most of those ambient tracks are just knob masturbating to the extreme. I know, Plastikman also is a knob twiddler, but those goa guys realy are something. snow

Regarding the suitability of Goa. I've come up with the definitive answer to rid us of the pesky nuisance. At recent underground Goa events in London I was fortunate to be in posession of an I.Q. meter. This assesses the intelligence of the tracks playing and the people dancing. As I approached the buildings that house said events the needle began to drop from around 160(my personal reading) until it bottomed out at zero as the parties reached their ecstatic climax. This provides us with unquestionable data suggesting that not only is GOA totally devoid of intelligence, it also saps your own intelligence. This latter discovery accounts for the number of people defending it. Further experiments with the I.Q. meter and Basic Channel caused the needle to melt through the 210 mark and head into hyperspace. Jim......

quoted 8 lines From: fms@scp.caltech.edu

> From: fms@scp.caltech.edu > I really like vocals in techno song where you can just barely make out > the words...Underworld are the masters of this... > In short (too late!) there are a lot of groups who do this sort of > thing. I'm wondering if anybody know of any songs which are entirely > vocal or significantly vocal (but obscured or weird vocals). > It's always been my dream to start an a cappella techno group. We'd > bring beat boxing back in style "A pumpbh, a pumbh, a <hiccup> puumbh!"

You'd probably like 'Ormeau' by Beaumont Hannant (and Lida Husik) then. Not *exactly* 'obscured or weird' vocals, but lots of layers and minimal accompaniment, except for when the breaks kick in. The single version is far better than the album version, though... see ya _________________________________________________ tom churchill e-mail: tom@chrchfam.demon.co.uk electronic musician/dj _________________________________________________

On Mon, 20 Nov 1995, Tom Churchill wrote:

quoted 4 lines You'd probably like 'Ormeau' by Beaumont Hannant (and Lida Husik)

> You'd probably like 'Ormeau' by Beaumont Hannant (and Lida Husik) > then. Not *exactly* 'obscured or weird' vocals, but lots of layers and > minimal accompaniment, except for when the breaks kick in. The single > version is far better than the album version, though...

Yeah, I agree with this recommendation whole-heartedly. What I really liked about this track was that, as far as I can tell, the vocals are really dry, rather than bathed in a thousand and one spacey effects (well, I love heaps of effects, but it was refreshing! :). Although I think Husik is American, her vocal style reminded me heaps of British folk stuff, which was also an interesting mix. Man, I could probably have summarised that as "Yeah I like it too." :) Michael ______________________________________________________________________________ scrot@sans.vuw.ac.nz (Michael Upton) "Doo doo doo" - Beach Boys ______________________________________________________________________________

quoted 4 lines You'd probably like 'Ormeau' by Beaumont Hannant (and Lida Husik) then. Not

>You'd probably like 'Ormeau' by Beaumont Hannant (and Lida Husik) then. Not >*exactly* 'obscured or weird' vocals, but lots of layers and minimal >accompaniment, except for when the breaks kick in. The single version is far >better than the album version, though...

Yes, I do like Lida Husik a lot. I have a single by her and Beaumont (and one of her albumns). The funny thing about the single is that the song that I considered to be the best trippy/technoey wise is credited to Lida alone! Was Ormeau a single or an album or what? Would it be filed under Husik or Hannant? Techno or Folk? eeek. [fletcher]

quoted 3 lines Was Ormeau a single or an album or what? Would it be

> Was Ormeau a single or an album or what? Would it be > filed under Husik or Hannant? Techno or Folk? eeek. >

It was originally on the SCULPTURED lp on GPR(Beaumont Hannant/Lida Husik Folk/Rap/trippy/dippy thing), then a remix 12'' came out. Highly irregular release for B.Hannant, but worth a few listens. Check out Evening At The Grange(On Astralwerks, I finally got it right!), too, in a similar vein... Derek Jordan

The debate on whether goa is intelligent or not takes a new turn as Israel's Trust in Trance records release a new compilation called (hehe) goa vibes vol.2, it includes the likes of Simon Berry, the POF guys from france, X-Dream (a rather interesting act which meddles not only with goa but had a GREAT 12" called 'Live Fast Die Young', Hardcore Breakbeat but not yet IDM for some of you ...) and a new track which is a collaboration between Israel's Astral Projection and a new israeli act called MFG. The result can only be wise assly described as Goa Funk-Hop. in short. when they wanna do it smooth they can. some of the more delicate goa build-ups should have hinted us. but it is not a closed subject. yet. snow