IDM Mailing Archive

Like with Garbage, I didn't know what to make of this EP at first. There was lots going on in the tracks except for the last one but nothing jumped out of the music and slapped me in the face, until about the third listen. One side has just one track and is quite long, probably my favourite on the EP. It has lovely drum programming which combines brilliantly with the haunting chord changes and original noises. This track definitely benefits from being listened to in the dark. The other side starts with another excellent tune. Autechre/Gescom are probably my favourite group because of the way their tracks sound so complicated but fit together so neatly. This track uses many different parts to make up the melody and they combine really well. Not quite as dark as the previous track. The last one is much slower and less hectic. I haven't come to like this one half as much as the others but I am sure it will grow on me. This is my most valued work by Autechre/Gescom at the moment but this is strongly influenced by it beng new. Can anyone read any of the writing on the cover apart from what is in the subject of this message? I even had to ask the shop assistant if it was a Gescom release, and he said that all morning they had been puzzling out who the EP was by. -Ed

On 6 Sep 1995, Edward Pond wrote (on IDM, but I'm copying this to ambient):

quoted 2 lines Autechre/Gescom are probably my favourite group because of the way

> Autechre/Gescom are probably my favourite group because of the way > their tracks sound so complicated but fit together so neatly.

Actually, I was going to send a message to the list commenting on exactly the opposite. Well, not exactly: I mean Autechre are one of my favourite groups at the mo', but I get the impression very little is going on in a lot of their tracks. I thought 'Foil' was pretty remarkably minimal, but then I heard 'Garbage'. Basically, as far as I can tell the actual "music" in the last two tracks (can't remember names sorry) doesn't change at all. By "music" I mean the harmonies/melodies and so on, I just can't think of a better term. That last track just seems to get brighter and duller, in terms of timbre, and that's all. Similarly, once the little riff fades in on the third track, the only change I've noticed is in that atmospheric percussion, which seems to get "thinner" sounding (increased resonance or something?). Are there secret harmonies and things going on that I haven't noticed? Anyway, I realise I'm ignoring lots of their more complex tracks like the first thing on that e.p. and tracks like ummmm... the one with the same notes as U2's 'Pride (In the name of love)'. Sorry, I'm being useless on the names front - it's near the end of 'Amber', and has lots of layered riffs and beats. 'Teartear' is one example I can remember the name of anyway. :) Michael ______________________________________________________________________________ "If I wasn't a giant cheese, I'd make you pay for that remark." scrot@sans.vuw.ac.nz (Michael Upton) - Pink and the Brain ______________________________________________________________________________

Michael Upton wrote on Thu, 07 Sep 95 06:28:06 BST :

quoted 4 lines On 6 Sep 1995, Edward Pond wrote (on IDM, but I'm copying this to ambient):

> On 6 Sep 1995, Edward Pond wrote (on IDM, but I'm copying this to ambient): > > > Autechre/Gescom are probably my favourite group because of the way > > their tracks sound so complicated but fit together so neatly.

I feel I must add my voice to this little discussion, as Autechre are my favourite group too - I've never really stopped to think why, so let me ramble a little, perhaps.

quoted 10 lines Actually, I was going to send a message to the list commenting on exactly

> Actually, I was going to send a message to the list commenting on exactly > the opposite. Well, not exactly: I mean Autechre are one of my favourite > groups at the mo', but I get the impression very little is going on in a > lot of their tracks. > > I thought 'Foil' was pretty remarkably minimal, but then I heard > 'Garbage'. Basically, as far as I can tell the actual "music" in the > last two tracks (can't remember names sorry) doesn't change at all. By > "music" I mean the harmonies/melodies and so on, I just can't think of a > better term.

Yeah, know what your saying. Autechre take this (a major component of modern "techno" and related music) to an extreme. What I am talking about is the repetition of melody structures. This is what causes many "traditional" musicians and music lovers to slate techno etc. as boring and repetitive, where the real work is often going on in the subtle texture changes taking place throughout a track. (* ref ahead) The tweeks that occur on yer average 303 line are a good example, but Autechre do things more subtly than that as a rule. So imo its both simple and complex. But where their complexity is more obvious is more likely to be in their rhythm lines. The multitudinous electronic clanks, clatters, bumps and fizzes that make up many an Autechre percussion track are unequalled imo. The ultimate complex rhtyhm track is of course that in "flutter". Amazingly, you can dance to and mix with this freaky non-repetitive breakbeat, and the wistful little tune on top with the rumbly bass synths in the middle add up to one of the most extraordinary tracks ever created. * referring back, of course there is bad techno where the repetition is very boring for a number of reasons, and one of these you will often find is due to a lack of subtle changes of timbre in the sound. Even the funkiest break and the most exiting riff will sound boring when you've heard it exactly the same hundreds of times. In your average pop song, the tune will be played exactly the same under each verse, but the lyrics will be different, and that's what joe public tends to respond to (cue huge generalisation). When he doesn't hear a lyrical song he thinks he's just hearing a repetitive tune. And of course he may be, but with the well crafted stuff, we know better, don't we? ;-)

quoted 2 lines That last track just seems to get brighter and duller, in terms of

> That last track just seems to get brighter and duller, in terms of > timbre, and that's all.

quoted 3 lines Anyway, I realise I'm ignoring lots of their more complex tracks like the

> Anyway, I realise I'm ignoring lots of their more complex tracks like the > first thing on that e.p. and tracks like ummmm... the one with the same > notes as U2's 'Pride (In the name of love)'.

Blimey! I've never noticed that.

quoted 4 lines Sorry, I'm being useless on

> Sorry, I'm being useless on > the names front - it's near the end of 'Amber', and has lots of layered > riffs and beats. 'Teartear' is one example I can remember the name of > anyway. :)

Teartear is probably my fave track off the LP btw, but the bizarre "You pervert you" sample on Silverside get me every time!! forgive me people, for I have rambled. J ^ -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ -_ This has been a message from James Skilton -_ -_-_ aka Steady J -_ -_-_-_ steady-j@firefox.co.uk -_ -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ -_ "I don't have any idea 'bout what's going on"-_ -_-_ - Autechre -_ -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_

On Sat, 9 Sep 1995, For Our Stenographer wrote:

quoted 6 lines Michael, that's the great thing about a techno, the new thing about it in

> Michael, that's the great thing about a techno, the new thing about it in > a musical sense is that there is a developing aesthetic for music that > has "timbral progression" instead of just melodic or harmonic or > narrative. Part of that timbral change is done through rhymthic changes > and part of it is done over actual mutation of the sounds ('brighter and > duller' as you said).

I didn't want to give people the impression that I had something against Autechre's lack of melodic and harmonic activity!!! I love the stuff, I was just interested in discussing what was actually going on. I'd dispute that rhythm is part of the timbre of the music. To use the term Thom Heilleson (hope I spelt that right!) used, it's a separate "axis" on which change can occur. I did an accoustics course in which timbre was described as a part of the make up of an individual sound, so what rhythm you put individual sounds into is something else.

quoted 4 lines A lot of synths (old analog) have key-transposition buttons and tempo

> A lot of synths (old analog) have key-transposition buttons and tempo > knobs, which would allow the programmers to make key changes easily > enough, but there are often 10-50 other parameters (all timbrality) that > are much more fun.

I've also played around on a sampler which basically used all the functions of FM synthesis, but on a sample rather than a generated tone. Listening to 'Garbage' particularly makes me think that Autechre have access to that kind of thing, as well as synths. Anyway, I swore to myself I'd avoid gear discussions... :/

quoted 3 lines Autechre tends to repeat patterns over 16 bars and make a series of basic

> Autechre tends to repeat patterns over 16 bars and make a series of basic > chord progressions across them, and often on the '1' of each bar (listen > to the pads), so there is 4/4 and 3-8 chords under there...

I don't get this at all. Do you mean they have bars of normal time with triplet quavers or something? Or does "3-8" mean "between 3 and 8" - as in that's how many chords Autechre fit across 16 bars. There may be an interesting observation in there, but, sorry, I can't figure it out. :)

quoted 1 line They use mixes of 4/4 and 3/4 in the same bars, too.

> They use mixes of 4/4 and 3/4 in the same bars, too.

How? I have absolutely no clues about polyrhythmic notation (any pointers would be great), so I don't get what you're saying. Is it either: a) There are riffs/rhythms/whatever that repeat every 3 beats, and others that repeat every four beats, but in the same tempo, so they'd be back in sync every 6 bars. or b) They have riffs in 4/4 and 3/4 simultaneously, where the 3/4 rhythm is slower than the 4/4 one, so they each fit the same bar space. Like really slow triplets in 4/4, I guess. Of course option c) is I have no idea what anyone's going on about, and my explanations are more confusing than what I started with. :) Michael ______________________________________________________________________________ scrot@sans.vuw.ac.nz (Michael Upton) ______________________________________________________________________________

On Sun, 10 Sep 1995, Michael Upton wrote:

quoted 3 lines On Sat, 9 Sep 1995, For Our Stenographer wrote:

> On Sat, 9 Sep 1995, For Our Stenographer wrote: > > I'd dispute that rhythm is part of the timbre of the music. To use the

[chop]

quoted 2 lines timbre was described as a part of the make up of an individual sound, so

> timbre was described as a part of the make up of an individual sound, so > what rhythm you put individual sounds into is something else.

When rhythm is constructed out of chunks of samples that have a filter sweep over them, I call that "an individual sound", even if is does contain a little suggestion of bass drum here at snare hit there... they are portions of rhythms fed through machines in such a way that they are using synthesis filters/envelopes over the whole chunk... they treat the sample as a synthesist has traditionally treated a pure saw/triangle/sine/square wave.

quoted 4 lines I've also played around on a sampler which basically used all the

> I've also played around on a sampler which basically used all the > functions of FM synthesis, but on a sample rather than a generated tone. > Listening to 'Garbage' particularly makes me think that Autechre have > access to that kind of thing, as well as synths.

The Casio FZ-1 lets you combine additive, simple Fourier-style and sample/wave synthesis with your samples, plus it gives you basic resonant filters (digital tho') over samples and 8stage envelopes. Sorry for the gear talk... :-\

quoted 1 line Anyway, I swore to myself I'd avoid gear discussions... :/

> Anyway, I swore to myself I'd avoid gear discussions... :/

yeah, sorry y'all, i think I'm done there...

quoted 3 lines Autechre tends to repeat patterns over 16 bars and make a series of basic

> > Autechre tends to repeat patterns over 16 bars and make a series of basic > > chord progressions across them, and often on the '1' of each bar (listen > > to the pads), so there is 4/4 and 3-8 chords under there...

quoted 3 lines I don't get this at all. Do you mean they have bars of normal time with

> I don't get this at all. Do you mean they have bars of normal time with > triplet quavers or something? Or does "3-8" mean "between 3 and 8" - as > in that's how many chords Autechre fit across 16 bars.

Yes, they may progress through several different chords, say as pads in the background, though this is more evident on things like Black Dog (early) or Aphex Tit.

quoted 3 lines a) There are riffs/rhythms/whatever that repeat every 3 beats, and others

> a) There are riffs/rhythms/whatever that repeat every 3 beats, and others > that repeat every four beats, but in the same tempo, so they'd be back in > sync every 6 bars.

That as well as actual triplets of half and whole notes *over* regular 16th and 24th notes... this is pretty common across IDM music, in fact, that's kind of what makes it IDM partially... IMHO

quoted 3 lines b) They have riffs in 4/4 and 3/4 simultaneously, where the 3/4 rhythm is

> b) They have riffs in 4/4 and 3/4 simultaneously, where the 3/4 rhythm is > slower than the 4/4 one, so they each fit the same bar space. Like really > slow triplets in 4/4, I guess.

yeah, another way of saying the bit above it...

quoted 2 lines Of course option c) is I have no idea what anyone's going on about, and

> Of course option c) is I have no idea what anyone's going on about, and > my explanations are more confusing than what I started with. :)

It seems like you *do* understand what I'm trying to talk about. Personally, I find this stuff fascinating: certainly has more compositional future than traditional popular music (ie.'rock') IMO...machines make these kinds of exploration possible... I am presently enjoying an endless complex dialogue between the products of IDM programmers (Aural Exp, Black Dog,Autechre, Tournesol) and my mental comprehension of 'music'. David Chandler - chandler@nethost.multnomah.lib.or.us (503)301-3011 grep -i casio goodwillbins >> mystudio ; grep -i atari goodwillbins >> mystudio ;

On Thu, 7 Sep 1995, Michael Upton wrote:

quoted 3 lines Anyway, I realise I'm ignoring lots of their more complex tracks like the

> Anyway, I realise I'm ignoring lots of their more complex tracks like the > first thing on that e.p. and tracks like ummmm... the one with the same > notes as U2's 'Pride (In the name of love)'.

Oh, so somebody else noticed that too, eh? This made it difficult for me to like that track...

quoted 4 lines Sorry, I'm being useless on

> Sorry, I'm being useless on > the names front - it's near the end of 'Amber', and has lots of layered > riffs and beats. 'Teartear' is one example I can remember the name of > anyway. :)

That's ok, the names are pretty useless anyway - they're only there so that trainspotters will waste their time trying to decipher them. :-} On Sat, 9 Sep 1995, For Our Stenographer wrote:

quoted 8 lines This is the thing we should embrace about techno as a truely new

> This is the thing we should embrace about techno as a truely new > proclamation in the world of music. The lack of melody-changes and > harmony-changes are intended to lock the repetitive elements of the music > so you notice the timbral changes. I don't think that many techno > programmers think of it this way, but that is basically what is > happenning; they are tripping out on the repetitiveness of the music and > (because of the instruments they use) are tweaking the timbral nature of > the music.

A keen observation. Marshall McLuhan would probably take this as further proof of his theories that electronic media are retribalizing Western civilization. IDM, Techno, Ambient, DrumN'Bass - these are all Modal forms of music, as are all tribal musics, and real Jazz. In other words, virtually all musics except for Classical, Pop, and Rock, which are based on Chordal Progression, as a result of human senses being re-ordered by the tyranny of moveable type. But I digress, I seem to have strayed - where are we? IDM, yes... On Sun, 10 Sep 1995, Michael Upton wrote:

quoted 6 lines I'd dispute that rhythm is part of the timbre of the music. To use the

> > I'd dispute that rhythm is part of the timbre of the music. To use the > term Thom Heilleson (hope I spelt that right!) used, it's a separate > "axis" on which change can occur. I did an accoustics course in which > timbre was described as a part of the make up of an individual sound, so > what rhythm you put individual sounds into is something else.

Mmmm....sounds like you need to listen to more DrumN'Bass! W/ a fast sustained sound, such as an open high hat, the rhythm at which it's played can definetely affect its timbre. Then again, maybe "textural" would be a better word than "timbral". W/o getting too analytical, I'd like to say that each new release from Autechre forces me to give up another preconception about music. I always spend several listenings going "Huh?", "Wha?", until I learn to accept and love it. Anxiously awaiting the new ones! Chill Che