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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)

23 messages · 16 participants · spans 7 days · search this subject
◇ merged from 3 subjects: record criticism kills brain cells · reverb and the race issue (sorry!) · we need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
1995-01-23 21:04ozymandias G desiderata We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
├─ 1995-01-24 17:36Howard Berkey Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
└─ 1995-01-24 18:03Cullen Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
1995-01-23 23:39Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
├─ 1995-01-24 06:00ozymandias G desiderata Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
│ └─ 1995-01-24 18:22Graham Scott Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
│ └─ 1995-01-24 20:36Greg Strockbine. We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
└─ 1995-01-24 07:42implode Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
1995-01-24 02:14Alan M. Parry Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
1995-01-24 04:35Reverb Magazine Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
├─ 1995-01-24 05:58The Sandman Reverb and the race issue (sorry!)
└─ 1995-01-24 17:52Greg Strockbine. We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
1995-01-24 06:07Jon Drukman Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
1995-01-24 16:19Lazlo Nibble Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
└─ 1995-01-24 12:33implode Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
1995-01-24 17:49Lee Fogel Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
1995-01-24 20:11Reverb Magazine Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
1995-01-24 22:51Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
1995-01-24 23:08Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
1995-01-25 01:52Lazlo Nibble Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
1995-01-27 21:54Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
1995-01-29 02:19Pete Ashdown Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
└─ 1995-01-30 12:12Dave Walker record criticism kills brain cells
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1995-01-23 21:04ozymandias G desiderataI spent this weekend reading _Silent Interviews_, a book of written interviews with Samuel
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ozymandias G desiderata
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I D M , Detroit Motor City YEAH , Dutch-Area Technotic Culture
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Mon, 23 Jan 95 14:04:29 -0700
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We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
permalink · <9501232104.AA01644@selway.umt.edu>
I spent this weekend reading _Silent Interviews_, a book of written interviews with Samuel Delany (*), and it was a thought- provoking experience. In it he discusses all kinds of interesting and strange aspects of both his own thought processes and the idea structures that impinge on science fiction in general (including, but not limited to, the difficulty of representation in language, the marginalization of science fiction / gays / blacks, the difference of the reading process itself in science fiction as compared to "mainstream literature" and how this reading process is what actually defines science fiction, and the fascination with markets inherent in sword & sorcery fantasy). One of the many feelings I was left with was how little real thought and analysis has been expended on techno. Why? Other musical genres have their theoriticians. There are academics that spend their entire careers discussing meaning, context, and the musicality of early 20th century Appalachian folksingers! There are critics who spend their entire lives studying the canons of Bach! Hell, you can even get a fat book contract talking, in great theoretical depth, about the various phases of the history of punk! It seems odd to me that, in a field of music that refers to intellectual domains such as technology and estrangement, and plays with ideas like self-reference and the concept of name so much, the level of discourse is most often at the level of "Wow! This record is fucking awesome! BUY IT NOW!" or (in interviews) "Why did you start making music?" And when artists do try to talk about things at a higher level, nobody supports their attempts by trying to push them further (I'll be the first person to say that interviews with FSOL tend to make them look unbearably pretentious, but at least they're trying). What would I like to see? More interviews that really go after artists' deep thought structures: what are they trying to communicate with their music, what's their governing aesthetic, what sort of theoretical concerns inform what they're doing? Questions that ask, instead of why somebody makes music, why they make the music they do and not something else? What about techno appeals to aspiring musicians? Is it the culture? Is it something in techno's history? Is it the sound? If it is the sound, what is it about the sound that appeals to them? Questions like this, and people's answers to them, can serve to push techno forward and help it grow. Especially if we are quite clear about what we, as listeners, do and do not like about what we're hearing. The vast majority of reviews of dance music completely miss the point. I don't know how many of you have ever seen an issue of Base 10 (pronounced "base twelve"), but the reviews I've seen there are typical of reviews I see everywhere in the dance music press: heavy on the superlatives, very little actual discussion of the music's elements and textures, very little space given to stuff that fails (and, concomitantly, very little discussion of _why_ it sucks), and numerical judgements that often seem to vary widely from a reviewer's stated opinion of the track. They review absolute shitpiles of stuff, but they give it all such cursory treatment that they needn't have bothered. Stated another way, since they only seem to review stuff that they like, and their reviews all read pretty much the same, the only real way they tell you the value of the recording is by putting its review in the zine! (I only single them out because they have a net presence and therefore my criticisms of them might serve some constructive purpose.) Good reviews should communicate effectively to someone who has never heard a given piece of music a little bit of the flavor of the work. It helps if you can avoid comparisons to things that your "average" listener hasn't heard, although comparisons can be very useful. They should be concise and avoid buzzwords. They should be information-rich and follow the normal rules of grammar. Look at the reviews of books in the NYT Review of Books. Make sure, however, that you make it quite clear whether you like something or hate it, and if you have strong feelings about it, make it clear _why_ you feel that way. Of course, I know how hard it is to write good reviews. You've all seen my reviews at one time or another (except maybe for some of you on lowlands), and I would judge them only partially successful by my own criteria. I have a tendency towards exaggeration, and I also have a problem with making errant comparisons (despite the fact that I have a fairly good ear for samples, I tend to hear influences in music that non-mutants give me the raised eyebrow for mentioning). Plus, being the human that I am, I want to convince everybody that I'm "cool," so perhaps I namecheck a bit frequently. Examples of REALLY good reviews that come readily to mind are Pete Ashdown's XDZebra reviews (despite his initial inclusion of the next-to-useless "dance factor" and his inability to be rational when it comes to either Aphex or Orbital) and Dave Walker's many freeke reviewlets. On the other hand, Jon Drukman's reviews consistently make my tonsils ache because of the vague hyperbole and approbation he puts in his reviews (no offense, Jon, I do like many of them, it's just that I can't figure out what the rambling ringtailed hell you're getting at sometimes). It also seems odd to me that despite techno's many obvious parallels to punk (the do-it-yourself ethic, the millions of small labels predicated more on getting music out to people than selling lots of copies, the huge culture of zines, the support given to travelling DJs and techno artists), there is one obvious key element of punk that never gets much play in techno: that of the political. This seems strange because the production and use of techno have so many links to politics: the racial tension between techno's black originators and the overwhelming flood of whites that have come after them, the resounding lack of women involved with just about every level of techno's production (and the existence of Saskia Slegers, DJ Rap, Marusha, and Plavka does not mean there is not a lack), homophobia, the continuing tug-of-war between rave promoters and the police (and therefore the establishment), the association with rave culture and from there with drugs, and many other politically charged ideas. And even when these ideas do get discussed, they very rarely manifest themselves in the music. And before people jump on me for being some sort of People's Advocate: I'm not advocating political correctness in our discussions, I'm just advocating political discussions _of any kind._ Didn't any of you find it to be a bit ironic that, of all the people to be involved in techno, Kenny Larkin was the one that got shot? What does the Criminal Justice Bill really mean? What the hell is going on in San Francisco right now with the cops? Why is there so much discussion of sexuality and drugs (well, glib discussion at least) inside the music of house and techno but nothing deeper? (except for the odd track, the most recent being Florence's "Off Balance" (is that the right name?)) Does the constant subliminal link between IDM and drugs (the assumption that IDM is somehow improved by the consumption of psychotropics) bug anybody besides me? This is not to say that politics don't ever make their way into techno. Autechre's "Flutter" was political in the same way that John Cage's "4:33" was, and I think it's an admirable way to start a discussion, even if they're mostly preaching to the choir. A more direct attempt was Terre Thaemlitz's discussion of AIDS safety in the liner notes of _Tranquilizer_ (and I feel that the discussion that stirred up was actually pretty useful, if you discard the usual complement of useless flames). But why aren't there more examples of this sort of topical reference? Why do people politely ignore James from Drexciya or Mad Mike Banks when they start going off on the white establishment? Even if you agree with them, don't you have some kind of reaction to their words? All right, I've spewed enough. The only reason I bring all of this up is because I'd like to see more meaningful discussion about what is one of the central elements of my life. There's a hell of a lot more to techno than trainspotting (which reminds me, I _am_ working on those discographies. Please don't beat me!), and the internet has the promise to be the most dynamic forum for worldwide discussion of these issues that there is. I think we should all do what we can to use it more effectively. impassionedly yrz, ozymandias (*) Samuel Delany is a brilliant science fiction author who has probably done more than anybody else to give sf its own theory. He's written books like Dhalgren, which is an analysis of ghetto life and what bonds people create when the normal social structures fall apart, Babel-17, which is a deconstruction of language in the form of a space opera, and the Return to Neveryon series, which is simultaneously a discussion of marginalization, literary theory, a deconstruction of the genre of Sword & Sorcery fiction, and a proud example thereof. ozymandias G desiderata AKA Forrest L Norvell AKA DJ AladdinSane GCS/CW/DJ d- H++ s++:-- !g p1 !au a- w+++ v+++ C++(---) U?++++(----)$ P--- L 3 E++ N++ K++ W---(-----) M++ V-- -po+ Y++>+++ t@ 5- jx R-- G'' !tv b+++ D++ B-- e++ u*(**) h-- f++ r++ n++ x+(*)
1995-01-24 17:36Howard BerkeyOzymandias rants: [...] > Examples of REALLY good reviews that come readily to mind are >
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Howard Berkey
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ozymandias G desiderata
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Tue, 24 Jan 1995 09:36:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject:
Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
Reply to:
We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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Ozymandias rants: [...]
quoted 10 lines Examples of REALLY good reviews that come readily to mind are> Examples of REALLY good reviews that come readily to mind are > Pete Ashdown's XDZebra reviews (despite his initial inclusion of the > next-to-useless "dance factor" and his inability to be rational when > it comes to either Aphex or Orbital) and Dave Walker's many freeke > reviewlets. On the other hand, Jon Drukman's reviews consistently make > my tonsils ache because of the vague hyperbole and approbation he puts > in his reviews (no offense, Jon, I do like many of them, it's just > that I can't figure out what the rambling ringtailed hell you're > getting at sometimes). >
Almost all reviewers, after listening to tons of music, tend to lose an objective focus no matter how hard they try. It's sort of like an occupational hazard, precipitated largely by the sheer amount of really crap music out there.
quoted 17 lines It also seems odd to me that despite techno's many obvious> It also seems odd to me that despite techno's many obvious > parallels to punk (the do-it-yourself ethic, the millions of small > labels predicated more on getting music out to people than selling > lots of copies, the huge culture of zines, the support given to > travelling DJs and techno artists), there is one obvious key element > of punk that never gets much play in techno: that of the > political. This seems strange because the production and use of techno > have so many links to politics: the racial tension between techno's > black originators and the overwhelming flood of whites that have come > after them, the resounding lack of women involved with just about > every level of techno's production (and the existence of Saskia > Slegers, DJ Rap, Marusha, and Plavka does not mean there is not a > lack), homophobia, the continuing tug-of-war between rave promoters > and the police (and therefore the establishment), the association with > rave culture and from there with drugs, and many other politically > charged ideas. And even when these ideas do get discussed, they very > rarely manifest themselves in the music.
I honestly hope most techno/IDM bands NEVER take on a political slant. Very little in the music world irritates me more than a band whose music I like becoming didactic assholes trying to put their political agenda into their music. Or worse yet, echoing the bullshit political issues o' the day in their music. That's what consolidated is for... a place for meaningless collection of didactic babble so other bands can concentrate on their music :-) Later, -H-
1995-01-24 18:03CullenWhile I certainly would welcome more critical and detailed reviews, as well as more effort
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Cullen
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Tue, 24 Jan 1995 11:03:33 -0700 (MST)
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
permalink · <Pine.SUN.3.90.950124104040.20265A-100000@xmission>
While I certainly would welcome more critical and detailed reviews, as well as more efforts to place the music in a larger social/political context, I think it's easy to understand why such efforts are rare. Techno/IDM (or the blanket label of your choice) is essentially silly music. The emotional range and complexity of ideas expressed is pathetic compared to most other genres of music. Even at its best, I consider this stuff to be sort of a guilty pleasure and nothing more than pleasant ear candy. Raves began as an essentially anti-intellectual hedonistic experience, and the music still reflects this origin. I expect that the music will gradually evolve into something a bit more challenging and thought provoking, but its most serious practioners right now just come off as cyber-stupid keyboard nerds. The trend to watch is the abandonment of that clumsy crutch of a dance beat. The essence of the music is rhythm and the important innovations will be rhythmic and tonal. The next person to use synthesized strings ought to be punched. On the other hand, the last thing I want is to encourage another generation of arrogant, pseudo-intellectual, parasitic academic music critics. All art critics are essentially parasites, and their only value lies in their ability to help a consumer make somewhat informed decisions about their purchases. The pretentiousness of critics who think that their work has some intrinsic intellectual value is nauseating. And again, I can't imagine any way that this music could acquire any kind of political content without some pompous bellowing Bono or Johnny Rotten lumped over the beats. I am extremely suspicious of the idea that music and politics make effective partners, and I think the most prominent examples of politically charged music are completely unconvincing (60's protest rock, punk, Bono and Midnight Oil). Music is a language of emotion and is political to the extent that the emotions it expresses are shared by any group. Isn't this enough?
1995-01-23 23:39enok@lysator.liu.seI don't write much on this list, but I can't resist to follow up this posting, with my own
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Tue, 24 Jan 1995 00:39:16 +0100
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
permalink · <199501232339.AAA11049@lysistrate>
I don't write much on this list, but I can't resist to follow up this posting, with my own 2 cents (or how that expression goes ...) I listen to techno/ambient music because I wan't to listen to music, not political propaganda! I don't understand the parallells between techno and punk music that many people talk about, there are huge differences. Punk musicians were often very uninterested in improving their music, the important thing was the political lyrics. Techno music is the opposite, most tracks don't even have texts just pure music, and the artists work really hard with finding new ways of expressions in harmony, rythm and sounds. Please don't let turn techno/ambient political, focus the attention on the evolution of the music instead!!! ... I agree with everything else you wrote. Specially that part about discussing and analysing the music with other words than "kicks ass" or "sucks". /Oskar
1995-01-24 06:00ozymandias G desiderataI don't want to keep responding to every message in this thread, merely because it's so ti
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ozymandias G desiderata
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Mon, 23 Jan 95 23:00:05 -0700
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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I don't want to keep responding to every message in this thread, merely because it's so time-consuming, but I felt that your reply merited a response. Quite simply, I disagree with you. Everything we do is political, whether we consider it to be or not. Even your decision to listen to techno and your preference that it stay apolitical is itself a political choice. I'm not going to tell you that you must run out and start actively seeking more political music, but I would ask that you consider the politics that went into the making of what you're listening to. And I'm not advocating that techno artists become radicals and start stomping around screaming political agendas. It would be nice, however, if they recognized the political dimension of what they're doing. For an interesting discussion of the parallels between punk and techno, you need look no further than Trance Europe Express 1. Many of the initial crop of European (and American) techno artists started out in the punk scene, and brought a lot of that energy to techno with them. And there are a lot of techno artists that have gotten an awful lot of mileage out of the same two or three synth patches, without spending much time developing what they're doing. I want to see techno keep evolving -- the rapidity of that evolution is part of what fascinates me so much about techno in the first place. But I'd also like to see it lose a little bit of the innocent naive patina that surrounds it (and, more often, rave culture) and see it become grounded in a more unified philosophical stance. But in the meantime, I'll happily keep spinning my Acid Junkies and Dance Mania records. yrz, ozymandias ozymandias G desiderata AKA Forrest L Norvell AKA DJ AladdinSane GCS/CW/DJ d- H++ s++:-- !g p1 !au a- w+++ v+++ C++(---) U?++++(----)$ P--- L 3 E++ N++ K++ W---(-----) M++ V-- -po+ Y++>+++ t@ 5- jx R-- G'' !tv b+++ D++ B-- e++ u*(**) h-- f++ r++ n++ x+(*)
1995-01-24 18:22Graham ScottOn Mon, 23 Jan 1995, ozymandias G desiderata wrote: > Quite simply, I disagree with you. E
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Graham Scott
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ozymandias G desiderata
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, I D M , Detroit Motor City YEAH , Dutch-Area Technotic Culture
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Tue, 24 Jan 1995 12:22:46 -0600 (CST)
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
Reply to:
Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
permalink · <Pine.SGI.3.91.950124121353.11393A-100000@sgi19.phlab.missouri.edu>
On Mon, 23 Jan 1995, ozymandias G desiderata wrote:
quoted 5 lines Quite simply, I disagree with you. Everything we do is> Quite simply, I disagree with you. Everything we do is > political, whether we consider it to be or not. Even your decision to > listen to techno and your preference that it stay apolitical is itself > a political choice. I'm not going to tell you that you must run out >
I couldn't agree more. I'm from the UK and I can tell you with supreme confidence that being actively involved with techno music - in any way - has become, by definition, political. As far as I am concerned Techno, along with its related forms of electro music (ie. other essentially bare, up tempo stuff), is made primarily for the dance floor. To think otherwise is abject folly. So if you don't like clubs or Megadogs, etc. you have to go to raves. Raves are for the most part illegal nowadays - so you see my point. It might not be so political in the States, but in Europe it is! Is Alex Paterson political? Is Andy Wetherall political? The Drum Club? Orbital? To say they ARE is an understatement. Get with the program..... Graham Scott c648574@cclabs.missouri.edu "24 hour 23 people"
1995-01-24 20:36Greg Strockbine.Graham> nowadays - so you see my point. It might not be so political Graham> in the States
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Tue, 24 Jan 95 12:36:42 -0800
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We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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Graham> nowadays - so you see my point. It might not be so political Graham> in the States, but in Europe it is! Is Alex Paterson Graham> political? Is Andy Wetherall political? The Drum Club? Graham> Orbital? To say they ARE is an understatement. Get with the Graham> program..... I just read that the Drum Club's cd named "Drums Are Dangerous" was a protest against the Criminal Justice Bill, till then I had no idea and I even own the cd. Its easy for that intent to get lost when the cd is found in a suburban Cali record shop.
1995-01-24 07:42implodeOn Tue, 24 Jan 1995 enok@lysator.liu.se wrote: > I listen to techno/ambient music because
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implode
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Tue, 24 Jan 1995 09:42:36 +0200 (IST)
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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On Tue, 24 Jan 1995 enok@lysator.liu.se wrote:
quoted 10 lines I listen to techno/ambient music because I wan't to listen to music, not> I listen to techno/ambient music because I wan't to listen to music, not > political propaganda! I don't understand the parallells between techno and > punk music that many people talk about, there are huge differences. Punk > musicians were often very uninterested in improving their music, the important > thing was the political lyrics. Techno music is the opposite, most tracks > don't even have texts just pure music, and the artists work really hard with > finding new ways of expressions in harmony, rythm and sounds. > > Please don't let turn techno/ambient political, focus the attention on the > evolution of the music instead!!!
Personally, I think if the various genres of techno became any more mindless that they already are, we'd be in real trouble. I see nothing wrong with an artist's attempt at being socially concious (in fact - it's a trend i'd like to see more often in this genre. Too much of what's heard at raves is UN-intelligent 'Beat music', and too often I will hear from other arists whose main goal is to sound just like an established style. Meaning, instead of wanting their own distinctive sound, they'd prefer to fit neatly into a genre (i.e. Acid, trance, hardtrance, breakbeat, house, happy-house, hardcore, happy hardcore, gabber, jungle..etc etc.). It's even more disturbing when their absolute goal is to sound EXACTLY like what is already on and prmoted by a record label. At this point, the artist looks to the labels to determine WHICH label's sound they want to copy and emulate (thus eliminating any chance of individuality, creating an atmosphere of stagnation and complacency). The DIY concept or 'fuck all y'all' ethic gets lost somewhere, replaced with a need to get that 'Big Thump Records' sound. Getting back to my original point, I could only see it as an improvement if the artists involved wanted to make this whole genre just a litle bit smarter. Maybe they could push some radical ideas like 'peace, love..etc', (the sorta thing I always beleived was the underlying theme of rave culture anyway.) And if it also means making things a little bit more 'politcal'.. then so be it. -implode@ids.net p.s. I made up 'Big Thup' records (in case you couldn't tell). Don't go looking for any 'Big Thump' releases at your favorite local techno shop. ;)
1995-01-24 02:14Alan M. Parry!!! Mail forwarded by idm-owner, fluid@hyperreal.com !!! !!! Original message and sender b
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Mon, 23 Jan 1995 18:14:54 -0800 (PST)
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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!!! Mail forwarded by idm-owner, fluid@hyperreal.com !!! !!! Original message and sender below !!! To: idm@hyperreal.com From: dvmiller+@osu.edu (Dave Miller) Subject: Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant) After reading the first two replies to this post, I think I finally have to add my two cents to a discussion. Here goes nothing... I think the point that is being made here is that techno needs some forum where it is discussed seriously and how it relates to other forms of music and to the culture that it represents, or from whiuch it is derived. This doesn't mean that there is no room for reviews that simply say "This track kicked ass and took names!", but in the braoder perspective, techno of all forms needs to have some thoughtful criticism and commentary if it is to become anything besides a marginal part of music history. This just means that *some* people who make, write about, or listen to techno have to think about what it is that makes this music a vital form of expression. Nothing is created in a vacuum. Sometimes, a bedroom full of blinking silver boxes may seem like it is seperate from the rest of the universe, but unless you have never heard any other music, *ever* or have *never* experienced anything outside your room, you bring all that you've expperienced into the creative process. Unfortunately, it seems that most artists out there are pretty much unaware of *why* they do what they do. Things done solely because 'it sounded really neat' are ultimately very empty, there's nothing below the surface. It's not about making techno 'political' either. Most people who listen to techno have no idea what the person making it looks like, so race doesn't enter into their minds. But, if you take a look at where techno came from (as far as the people who started it) and the typical attendee at a rave, you'll notice quite a difference. So the question that Ozymandias is asking is: why is techno such a predominantly white, suburban thing? (Outside of Detroit, Chicago, NY, etc...) OK, my mind is all twisted around now, so I'll stop. My points in a nutshell: 1. People who make techno need to start thinking about *why* they do it; otherwise, this is all just a pointless tangent in history. 2. Maybe just a couple of people could notice that how something that started out as a definite part of inner-city culture has been co-opted by white, suburban kids. Dave
1995-01-24 04:35Reverb Magazine> Maybe just a couple of people could notice that how something that started out as a defi
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Reverb Magazine
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Mon, 23 Jan 1995 20:35:05 -0800
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
permalink · <199501240435.UAA16558@taz.hyperreal.com>
quoted 1 line Maybe just a couple of people could notice that how something that> Maybe just a couple of people could notice that how something that
started out as a definite part of inner-city culture has been co-opted by white, suburban kids. < Trust me, plenty people have noticed, it's happened with just about every original American music form. Elvis = Vanilla Ice = Michael Bolton = Moby -reverb
1995-01-24 05:58The SandmanOn Mon, 23 Jan 1995, Reverb Magazine wrote: > > Maybe just a couple of people could notice
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Mon, 23 Jan 1995 22:58:24 -0700 (MST)
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Reverb and the race issue (sorry!)
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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On Mon, 23 Jan 1995, Reverb Magazine wrote:
quoted 12 lines Maybe just a couple of people could notice that how something that> > Maybe just a couple of people could notice that how something that > started out as a definite part of inner-city culture has been co-opted by > white, suburban kids. < > > Trust me, plenty people have noticed, it's happened with just about every > original American music form. > > Elvis = Vanilla Ice = Michael Bolton = Moby > > > -reverb >
I don't like Reverb's implication that techno is an "original American music form' that was stolen from blacks by 'the man'. At least that is what I read in his above comment. Race is not the issue. Techno is a true multinational art-form. It trancends ethnic, national, and racial boundries. I don't want to get caught up in a long thread about who invented techno. Really i don't! But have you ever heard of Kraftwek :-) They went on to be sampled by Afrika Bambata etc. It seams to me that Americans idolize UK techno (jungle and most IDM), whereas the the Brits love Chicago house and Detroit techno. Each side of the Altaltic looks to the other side for inspiration, which is a really nice thing. As for the reason there are fewer minorities producing techno, i believe that this is because of the lack of $$$ to buy equipment. I don't think anyone in the US would debate the fact that most minorities are in the lower class and have less disposable income to spend on gear. Does anyone else have anything to add to this? i think it is relavent but if no-one else does than I'll just climb down from my high-horse and disappear back into the noisy chatter of the Net. PEACE Sandy at Tribe303 ****************************************************************************** <slave screams> he thinks he knows what he wants <slave screams> thinks he has something to say <slave screams> he hears but doesn't want to listen <slave screams> he's being beat into submission ******************************************************************************
1995-01-24 17:52Greg Strockbine.> Maybe just a couple of people could notice that how something that Reverb> started out a
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Greg Strockbine.
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Tue, 24 Jan 95 09:52:20 -0800
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We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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quoted 1 line Maybe just a couple of people could notice that how something that> Maybe just a couple of people could notice that how something that
Reverb> started out as a definite part of inner-city culture has been co-opted by Reverb> white, suburban kids. < Reverb> Trust me, plenty people have noticed, it's happened with just Reverb> about every original American music form. Reverb> Elvis = Vanilla Ice = Michael Bolton = Moby yes, I read this complaint all the time - "co-opted by white suburban kids", I'm trying to figure out why this is bad. Is it because the music originally came from blacks and gays and the white kids are homophobic and racist?
1995-01-24 06:07Jon Drukman>One of the many feelings I was left with was >how little real thought and analysis has be
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Jon Drukman
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Mon, 23 Jan 1995 22:07:45 -0800
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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quoted 2 lines One of the many feelings I was left with was>One of the many feelings I was left with was >how little real thought and analysis has been expended on techno.
I think this is a good thing. Techno evolves so quickly (possibly the first truly modern music due to the incredible distribution channels that blanket the globe) that to say anything about techno today is a waste of breath, considering that it will be totally different tomorrow. I mean, I'm having a hard time even imagining what you MEAN by the term "techno." There's just too much ground covered with one word...
quoted 3 lines Good reviews should communicate effectively to someone who has> Good reviews should communicate effectively to someone who has >never heard a given piece of music a little bit of the flavor of the >work.
I doubt very much whether this is even possible with techno. How would you describe Underground Resistance to someone who had never heard it? "Uh, it's got a big 4/4 beat... yeah... and some electronic noises that sound like a garbage can run through a metal grinder, only backwards, and with echo." What the hell is that going to mean to someone who's never heard UR? Might as well just say "it fucking rocks, man!!" and hope that your enthusiasm is infectious enough to make another record sale.
quoted 3 lines It helps if you can avoid comparisons to things that your>It helps if you can avoid comparisons to things that your >"average" listener hasn't heard, although comparisons can be very >useful.
See, I think comparisons are ESSENTIAL. Since, as I said above, you can't really "get" the track through an abstract verbal discussion, some sort of reference to something you already know helps much more than anything else. If I say, "this track has a structure reminiscent of Orbital's typical output" then you pretty much know exactly what I'm talking about right off. If you don't, it isn't going to help if I say, "it has a repetitive evolving structure."
quoted 2 lines On the other hand, Jon Drukman's reviews consistently make>On the other hand, Jon Drukman's reviews consistently make >my tonsils ache
maybe you'd better have them taken out... that would neatly eliminate the whole problem :)
quoted 4 lines because of the vague hyperbole and approbation he puts> because of the vague hyperbole and approbation he puts >in his reviews (no offense, Jon, I do like many of them, it's just >that I can't figure out what the rambling ringtailed hell you're >getting at sometimes).
vague hyperbole!? VAGUE!? I think my hyperbole is extremely specific! anyway, i would be happy to clarify any odd turns of phrase if there's something in particular you didn't get... (what, me defensive?)
quoted 7 lines It also seems odd to me that despite techno's many obvious> It also seems odd to me that despite techno's many obvious >parallels to punk (the do-it-yourself ethic, the millions of small >labels predicated more on getting music out to people than selling >lots of copies, the huge culture of zines, the support given to >travelling DJs and techno artists), there is one obvious key element >of punk that never gets much play in techno: that of the >political.
in my mind it's because this generation is sick and tired of politics. what have the protest songs done for us so far? not bloody much! i think many techno kids have seen the dead end of politics (at least US politics) and said "fuck it, bang your head, warp your brain... might as well enjoy it while it's here..." i see a huge amount of hedonism, or at least total apathy, in the techno scene. politics ain't for us.
quoted 2 lines And even when these ideas do get discussed, they very>And even when these ideas do get discussed, they very >rarely manifest themselves in the music.
it's damned hard to make a techno "protest song" without being incredibly obvious about it. you've either got vocals, which is a pretty big no no for "pure" techno, or you've got vocal samples, which get old real fast. so what's the point in trying?
quoted 3 lines Does the constant subliminal link between IDM and drugs (the>Does the constant subliminal link between IDM and drugs (the >assumption that IDM is somehow improved by the consumption of >psychotropics) bug anybody besides me?
considering the vast number of IDM-makers who are total potheads, i think it's silly to be bugged by it. this is made by people on drugs, for people on drugs. techno to me is an inherenty non-involved music. -- Name: Jon Email: jsd@cyborganic.com Web: http://cyborganic.com/~jsd
1995-01-24 16:19Lazlo Nibble> Personally, I think if the various genres of techno became any more > mindless that they
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Intelligent Dance Music
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Tue, 24 Jan 1995 09:19:34 -0700 (MST)
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
permalink · <9501241619.AA02834@RT66.com>
quoted 4 lines Personally, I think if the various genres of techno became any more> Personally, I think if the various genres of techno became any more > mindless that they already are, we'd be in real trouble. I see nothing > wrong with an artist's attempt at being socially concious (in fact - > it's a trend i'd like to see more often in this genre.
"Socially-conscious techno?" Breakbeats over audio samples of pygmies being mowed down by machine guns? Samples of New Hemp Chic'ers being rounded up by the drug police? Boy, what a thrill *that* sounds like it'd be.
quoted 3 lines I could only see it as an improvement if the artists involved wanted to> I could only see it as an improvement if the artists involved wanted to > make this whole genre just a litle bit smarter. Maybe they could push > some radical ideas like 'peace, love..etc',
Pushing big smelly hunks of vomitus up my throat, more like. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@rt66.com) ::: Visit http://rt66.com/lazlo/ for Discographies, Record ::: Collecting Resources, The Internet Music Wantlists, and more.
1995-01-24 12:33implodeOn Tue, 24 Jan 1995, Lazlo Nibble wrote: > > I could only see it as an improvement if the
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implode
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Tue, 24 Jan 1995 14:33:43 +0200 (IST)
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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On Tue, 24 Jan 1995, Lazlo Nibble wrote:
quoted 5 lines I could only see it as an improvement if the artists involved wanted to> > I could only see it as an improvement if the artists involved wanted to > > make this whole genre just a litle bit smarter. Maybe they could push > > some radical ideas like 'peace, love..etc', > > Pushing big smelly hunks of vomitus up my throat, more like.
So you're not in favor of 'peace and love' then? Or are you just too wrapped up in your own phoney macho image to say it aloud? Afraid? I'm so curious... -implode@ids.net (I(m also curious why you responed to a sincere post like a complete asshole..;) )
1995-01-24 17:49Lee Fogel> > Personally, I think if the various genres of techno became any more > > mindless that
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Tue, 24 Jan 95 09:49:27 PST
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
permalink · <9501241749.AA22809@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
quoted 4 lines Personally, I think if the various genres of techno became any more> > Personally, I think if the various genres of techno became any more > > mindless that they already are, we'd be in real trouble. I see nothing > > wrong with an artist's attempt at being socially concious (in fact - > > it's a trend i'd like to see more often in this genre.
I think idm transcends social consciousness. More than anything, idm is about the nature of sound, and how certain kinds of sounds can transport the listener to areas of consciousness not necessarily related to everyday "real" world experiences. Sure, vocal samples, ethnic sounds, recognizables ryhthms, often provide a cultural reference point to the listening experience, but ultimately, I find that the sound processing, perfect beat (when there is one) and synthetic timbres usually chosen by idm artists serve more to emphasize a sense of "other worldliness". A lot of idm music is about sound fundamentals, where the palette consists of wavelength, amplitute and frequency. I often find myself relating such music to wave theory, Quantum Mechanics and the basic characteristcs of space and time. Perhaps this is why it appeals to those who enjoy exploring altered states of consciousness, were a sense of connectedness to the basic elements of the universe is sometimes experienced. Lee ____________________________________________________________________________ lxfogel@pacbell.com ( ( ( ( ((0)) ) ) ) ) lee@hyperreal.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1995-01-24 20:11Reverb MagazineCo-optation (sp?) isn't inherently bad, but it can be if it's coupled with misguided corpo
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Reverb Magazine
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Tue, 24 Jan 1995 12:11:53 -0800
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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Co-optation (sp?) isn't inherently bad, but it can be if it's coupled with misguided corporate mindsets. - - reverb
1995-01-24 22:51enok@lysator.liu.se>On Mon, 23 Jan 1995, ozymandias G desiderata wrote: >> Quite simply, I disagree with you.
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Tue, 24 Jan 1995 23:51:55 +0100
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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quoted 6 lines On Mon, 23 Jan 1995, ozymandias G desiderata wrote:>On Mon, 23 Jan 1995, ozymandias G desiderata wrote: >> Quite simply, I disagree with you. Everything we do is >> political, whether we consider it to be or not. Even your decision to >> listen to techno and your preference that it stay apolitical is itself >> a political choice. I'm not going to tell you that you must run out >>
OK. Then what I was trying to say is that I wish techno music could keep the apolitical political attitude it has now. (I still think this is just a weird way of saying "let's stay out of politics").
quoted 11 lines I couldn't agree more. I'm from the UK and I can tell you with supreme>I couldn't agree more. I'm from the UK and I can tell you with supreme >confidence that being actively involved with techno music - in any way - >has become, by definition, political. As far as I am concerned Techno, >along with its related forms of electro music (ie. other essentially >bare, up tempo stuff), is made primarily for the >dance floor. To think otherwise is abject folly. So if you don't like >clubs or Megadogs, etc. you have to go to raves. Raves are for the most >part illegal nowadays - so you see my point. It might not be so political >in the States, but in Europe it is! Is Alex Paterson political? Is Andy >Wetherall political? The Drum Club? Orbital? To say they ARE is an >understatement. Get with the program.....
But they don't express that in their music right? At least, I haven't noticed it. The only thing I can think of are some vague samplings which can be interpreted in any way the listener wants. You have to admit that techno/rave is very much about escaping from the problems of the real world into musical trance? At least that is my impression, and that is a big reason for my liking it so much! About dance floors ... I don't like to dance, but I love to listen to techno music, and I know I'm not the only one. But that has been discussed before ... :-) /Oskar
1995-01-24 23:08enok@lysator.liu.se>I think idm transcends social consciousness. More than anything, idm is >about the nature
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Wed, 25 Jan 1995 00:08:12 +0100
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
permalink · <199501242308.AAA15141@lysistrate>
quoted 8 lines I think idm transcends social consciousness. More than anything, idm is>I think idm transcends social consciousness. More than anything, idm is >about the nature of sound, and how certain kinds of sounds can transport >the listener to areas of consciousness not necessarily related to >everyday "real" world experiences. Sure, vocal samples, ethnic sounds, >recognizables ryhthms, often provide a cultural reference point to the >listening experience, but ultimately, I find that the sound processing, >perfect beat (when there is one) and synthetic timbres usually chosen >by idm artists serve more to emphasize a sense of "other worldliness".
quoted 7 lines A lot of idm music is about sound fundamentals, where the palette>A lot of idm music is about sound fundamentals, where the palette >consists of wavelength, amplitute and frequency. I often find myself >relating such music to wave theory, Quantum Mechanics and the basic >characteristcs of space and time. Perhaps this is why it appeals to >those who enjoy exploring altered states of consciousness, were a sense >of connectedness to the basic elements of the universe is sometimes >experienced.
I could definitely not have expressed my thoughts better myself! Thank you for speaking up my mind! :-) /Oskar
1995-01-25 01:52Lazlo Nibble>>> I could only see it as an improvement if the artists involved wanted >>> to make this
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Lazlo Nibble
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Intelligent Dance Music
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Tue, 24 Jan 1995 18:52:46 -0700 (MST)
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
permalink · <9501250152.AA02845@RT66.com>
quoted 7 lines I could only see it as an improvement if the artists involved wanted>>> I could only see it as an improvement if the artists involved wanted >>> to make this whole genre just a litle bit smarter. Maybe they could >>> push some radical ideas like 'peace, love..etc', >> >> Pushing big smelly hunks of vomitus up my throat, more like. > > So you're not in favor of 'peace and love' then?
So I'm not in favor of using music in the advancement of mindless sloganeering like "peace, love..etc". If you sincerely believe in "peace, love..etc", go out and do something to promote it instead of sitting on your arse whining that your favorite techno acts aren't working hard enough at reinforcing your political preconceptions.
quoted 2 lines (I(m also curious why you responed to a sincere post like a complete> (I(m also curious why you responed to a sincere post like a complete > asshole..;) )
Sincere mindless bullshit is still mindless bullshit. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@rt66.com) ::: Visit http://rt66.com/lazlo/ for Discographies, Record ::: Collecting Resources, The Internet Music Wantlists, and more.
1995-01-27 21:54PaulT23@aol.comMy first response to this thread was : We are all impatient. Music history is not decided
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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My first response to this thread was : We are all impatient. Music history is not decided now, but later, after it is obvious in hindsight what was important and what wasn't. Because, the truly brilliant music will survive. But now, I'm not so sure if quality will survive - or even see the light of day compared with shit that sells double platinum. Skepticism prevails. But I do agree that techno/electronic music in general needs to be considered seriously by everyone involved if it is to survive. I don't mean "don't have fun". I mean the more thought people put into the music the better. I get really tired of hearing stuff that sounds like it was just slapped together. This reminds me of my reaction to a quote related to Peter Kuhlman (Namlook). He claimed that most of his music takes less than a week to create, however, "Air" took two to three weeks. I like Namlook music - my point is that I think Air is his best work. The fact that it took the longest makes sense to me because I think he thought about how to make it good for a longer amount of time, and it turned out better that way. If he would stop making a record every other day and maybe spent a month or two ( gasp! shocking ! ) to make just one record, it might be really great. On the other hand, Mozart wrote music pretty damn fast too ( not that I think that Peter is Mozart ).
1995-01-29 02:19Pete Ashdown> > Examples of REALLY good reviews that come readily to mind are > > Pete Ashdown's XDZeb
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Pete Ashdown
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Sat, 28 Jan 1995 19:19:14 -0700 (MST)
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
permalink · <199501290219.TAA07675@xmission.xmission.com>
quoted 4 lines Examples of REALLY good reviews that come readily to mind are> > Examples of REALLY good reviews that come readily to mind are > > Pete Ashdown's XDZebra reviews (despite his initial inclusion of the > > next-to-useless "dance factor" and his inability to be rational when > > it comes to either Aphex or Orbital) and Dave Walker's many freeke
quoted 4 lines Almost all reviewers, after listening to tons of music, tend to lose> Almost all reviewers, after listening to tons of music, tend to lose > an objective focus no matter how hard they try. It's sort of like an > occupational hazard, precipitated largely by the sheer amount of > really crap music out there.
Which is part of the reason I stopped. I started repeating myself and having a hard time evaluating stuff that was good, but I was sick of. Frankly I don't know how Siskel and Ebert have been doing movies for so long. Maybe there's just more to talk about than a 70 minute disc. The other reason I stopped was of course XMission. Here I sit on a Saturday night, unshaved from my 3:00 AM night on Friday. Road crew for the Infobahn. Bleck.
1995-01-30 12:12Dave WalkerOn Sat, 28 Jan 1995, Pete Ashdown wrote: > > Almost all reviewers, after listening to tons
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Mon, 30 Jan 1995 07:12:53 -0500 (EST)
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record criticism kills brain cells
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Re: We need more serious criticism of techno! (long rant)
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On Sat, 28 Jan 1995, Pete Ashdown wrote:
quoted 9 lines Almost all reviewers, after listening to tons of music, tend to lose> > Almost all reviewers, after listening to tons of music, tend to lose > > an objective focus no matter how hard they try. It's sort of like an > > occupational hazard, precipitated largely by the sheer amount of > > really crap music out there. > > Which is part of the reason I stopped. I started repeating myself and having > a hard time evaluating stuff that was good, but I was sick of. Frankly I > don't know how Siskel and Ebert have been doing movies for so long. Maybe > there's just more to talk about than a 70 minute disc.
I think I know what you're saying here. I knew I had to step back for a minute when I realized that I was buying records for their "reviewability" - can I say something interesting about this record? I'm going to keep posting reviews, but I don't want to "jaundice my ear" by overdoing it. The usually worthless Spin magazine actually had something tangetially worthwhile to say about this subject. They mentioned a phenomenon they called "record store sales clerk tastes": people who hear so much music that they gravitate to anything that sounds even remotely "different", sometimes (but not necessarily) independent of quality. They mentioned the success of that Benedicine monks's record and Beck's debut as evidence of this sort of mindset seeping into the popular public. Thankfully, though, I'm still finding music that excites me. I had a chance to watch a highly skilled jock (Claude Young) work his stuff the other night during a live radio session (it's nice to get out of the "ambient comp ghetto" every now and then, everyone should try it sometime), and he played at least a dozen tracks I immediately wanted to hunt down. ----------------------------------------------------------------- dave walker marmoset@msen.com new frontiers in pleasure management <A HREF="http://www.msen.com/~marmoset/">Dave Walker</A>