IDM Mailing Archive

Sean Joseph Portnoy <portnoy@chaph.usc.edu> said:

quoted 9 lines i am a poor and thus infrequent idm purchaser who picked up the artifical

>i am a poor and thus infrequent idm purchaser who picked up the artifical >intellignece 2 comp >to get a sample of autechre, b12 and hia before plunking >down $$ on their own full-length >stuff. >i must say i was fairly disappointed with the comp. except, of course, for >the always >excellent black dog (aka balil) and their "parasight" production. >this may be a bit of >flame-bait material, but i have a couple of gripes with >the idm "style" evident on ai 2. that >is, a very long intro that usually >consists of some noodling around with synths and then >finally the beat kicks >in.

Funny, I got in the "noodling" debate with a professor last thursday (he was formally trained in acoustic guitar) who really couldn't understand reasons for and appreciation of "ambient" music and some of what I would call "IDM" .... but that's another argument. :) (!) Instead of dwelling on that, let me suggest a few tracks that might be more to your liking. If what bothers you about some slower/listening tracks is their long washy intros, or seeming "lack of form" before the beats kick in, you might consider some more stripped-down or what has been called "minimalist" techno. But if you like the watery sampley sounds of amorphous androgynous, this is absolutely nothing like that. It can be repetitive too, but that's minimalism for ya'. :) I am thinking in particular about the recent work of Jeff Mills and Robert Hood. For those hung-up on the unfortunately necessary labeling of techno, (I know, me too) this is for the record, probably not a whole like IDM and definitely not characterized by traditionally "ambient" traits. This is short, fast and often very cold techno. But really nothing like the "hardcore" techno I associate with labels like Drop Bass, Re-Load, or recent DJAX records. In short, it's stripped down, darker Detroit, less acidic, if acidic at all! If there is a 303 used at all, it's prob. not used in the "typical" acidic way. A trademark of Mills and Hood is the no-nonsense method of getting right to the meat of track, no bullshit, all form. Mills and Hood make relatively short tracks (I guess 4-8 minutes each, I've never really timed them but 3 can easily fit on one side of a 12"). I admire this, I think it's harder to squeeze the essence of a techno song under 5 minutes because so much of it depends on intricate layers, which are typically "broken down" to appreciate. Mill's "Cycle 30" record is characterized by short loops and un-typical structures of phasing and out-of-phasing, some weird delays overlapping, but overall less "special effects processing," stark beats, more Detroit feel, and no warm-long "trancy" chords, and basically un-typical acid, or no acid at all. The beats are un-typical of most techno, no solo 909 kicks at the intro, often it usually starts with a short non-percussive loop, then perhaps another loops are added (quickly), and it's often hard to tell right when the kick drum comes in. I love that, but *damn* is it hard to mix in and out of during a set. The structures don't have the usual breaks at the 8 counts, either, they make their own structures and are not the typical "add or subtract something every 8 or 16 phrases" like house music and a lot of "dancey" techno usually follows. Mills and Hood records are not typically "DJ friendly" yet are very highly respected by DJ's, and I'll venture to say that Mills is arguably the best DJ of his genre in the world. (not indended to start flames or debate, but I believe this is true).

quoted 6 lines can anyone help me come up with a buying list? btw, stuff i have bought and

>can anyone help me come up with a buying list? btw, stuff i have bought and >liked includes > polygon window, black dog's bytes and some of the amorphous androgynous stuff. > i need to find some stuff that suits my taste (shorter tracks, innovative use >of beats equal >to other experimentation with sounds) for my increasingly >infrequent trips to the record store.

If you hate "a looped beat ad nauseaum," as you say, then you should listen before buying, but do appreciate the structure and short(er) length of the tracks. But the tracks are no-bullshit, straight-up pure techno, IMHO, and waste no time in "noodling" or un-motivated ambient atmosphere, yet they still have "soul" in some dark way. A great example of this is the track "Core" on Robert Hood's "Internal Empire," on the M-plant label. Even the name of the track suggests it's feel. :) Recommended Listening: Jeff Mills (many records on the AXIS label, which I think is "his" label) "Cycle 30" 12" which has about 8 cool locked-groove loops on the b-side "GROWTH" 12" Robert Hood "Minimal Nation" a 2 x 12" pack that defines the genre, amazingly dark "Internal Empire" 4 smart short tracks, wonderfully dense, fast. Mode Selector a new artist on the Planet E label, (with other projects going on too). at times warmer than Mills and Hood but still dense, hard, minimal at times. Has a track featured on the new Planet E compilation CD called "raindrops" and two 12"'s and an LP due sometime later in 1995. I hope that helps. It sure isn't what I consider to be IDM but hey, it's damn good. :) Sorry this reply was so long....... peace, _______________________________________________________________________ Matt MacQueen GROWTH. Interface and Hypermedia Designer/Programmer Communication Technology Laboratory, Michigan State Univeristy _______________________________________________________________________

[I'm cc:ing this to 313, because we think Jeff Mills is pretty neat over there]

quoted 5 lines I am thinking in particular about the recent work of Jeff Mills and

> I am thinking in particular about the recent work of Jeff Mills and > Robert Hood. For those hung-up on the unfortunately necessary labeling of > techno, (I know, me too) this is for the record, probably not a whole like > IDM and definitely not characterized by traditionally "ambient" > traits.

I don't mean to pick on you personally here, Matt, but when was it decided that ambient has any necessary or sufficient connection to ambient? One of the original IDM "personalities" is Richard James, and although he seems to get more serious recognition for his ambient music, he's put out many blisteringly hard tracks as well. In fact, tracks like "Tamphex", "Phloam", and the Mescalinium United remixes are my favorite of James' many modes. If there are such strong ties between ambient and IDM (and I'd say that at least a few members of this list seem to think there is), why bother splitting the ambient list off into its own domain? Does there have to be at least a little bit of a rhythmic element to a piece of music to make it IDM instead of ambient? Does it, on the other hand, have to be "funky" or somehow rhythmically more complex or slower to separate it from the undifferentiated mass of techno? I really do wonder sometimes how people separate the intelligent music from the stupid stuff. What I'm getting at is that there really is no charter for IDM, or if there is one, it's very amorphous. I've been a member for so long that I can't remember what the welcoming message says, but I'd wager that we vary widely from the boundaries it sets on a regular basis. I remember the AI series being one of the prime exemplars of the IDM sound, but that definition seems too narrow to reflect what we actually discuss on the list. Okay, I went and reread the welcom message, and even the _welcome_message_ is (purposefully?) vague. What _is_ IDM? Have we ever really decided on some sort of consensus definition for it? Can there be one that doesn't piss off at least half of the list? These are all honest questions. I don't have any pat answers.

quoted 7 lines This is short, fast and often very cold techno. But really nothing like

> This is short, fast and often very cold techno. But really nothing like > the "hardcore" techno I associate with labels like Drop Bass, Re-Load, or > recent DJAX records. In short, it's stripped down, darker Detroit, less > acidic, if acidic at all! If there is a 303 used at all, it's prob. not > used in the "typical" acidic way. A trademark of Mills and Hood is the > no-nonsense method of getting right to the meat of track, no bullshit, all > form.

Reload and Djax are hardcore? Really? The stuff I've heard on those labels doesn't seem very hard to me at all. They seem to be pretty much in the Euro-trance / hardhouse / acid house vein to me. I'd be interested to hear what in their rosters makes them sound hard to you. Not that I'm saying that I disagree with you, I'm just curious as to what you've heard that I haven't. But I agree that most of Rob Hood and Jeff Mills' music doesn't fall into any traditional conception of hardcore. It's fast, and it has lots of shrieking and whistling noises in it, but it also is very texturally rich and elaborately structured music. X-103 and "The Extremist" reward very close listening, because of all of the different layers that Mills put in.

quoted 5 lines Mills and Hood make relatively short tracks (I guess 4-8 minutes

> Mills and Hood make relatively short tracks (I guess 4-8 minutes > each, I've never really timed them but 3 can easily fit on one side of a > 12"). I admire this, I think it's harder to squeeze the essence of a > techno song under 5 minutes because so much of it depends on intricate > layers, which are typically "broken down" to appreciate.

I agree. X-103's "Atlantis" managed to cram a huge number of ideas into a relatively short 35 minutes. It's actually kind of painful for me, as a DJ, to try to work with most of Mills' tracks. (Ideally) he lets a track play just long enough to get the song's central "idea" across, and then he gets out. Sometimes the idea doesn't work, like in "Changes of Life," where he looped a bad happy-house piano chord to death and beyond, but you don't have to listen to more than three or four minutes of any of his failures. The other difficulty I have with mixing Mills' stuff is the same textural complexity I mentioned above. In several of the mixes of "The Extremist," it's very difficult to pick out the beat behind all of the layers of texture and filtering. That song is just plain _strange_, no matter how you regard it, but it's probably my favorite track by Mills.

quoted 6 lines Mill's "Cycle

> Mill's "Cycle > 30" record is characterized by short loops and un-typical structures of > phasing and out-of-phasing, some weird delays overlapping, but overall less > "special effects processing," stark beats, more Detroit feel, and no > warm-long "trancy" chords, and basically un-typical acid, or no acid at > all.

While I substantively agree with you here, I also think it's worthwhile to note that Mills does heavily process much of his music, it's just that he does it in a very different way than most other techno artists. His use of distortion is innovative, for example, and the way he layers keyboards into a kind of shimmering morass (where all you can really hear is the whole, and can't reduce it to its constituent parts) is unique.

quoted 5 lines The beats are un-typical of most techno, no solo 909 kicks at the

> The beats are un-typical of most techno, no solo 909 kicks at the > intro, often it usually starts with a short non-percussive loop, then > perhaps another loops are added (quickly), and it's often hard to tell > right when the kick drum comes in. I love that, but *damn* is it hard to > mix in and out of during a set.

Amen to that, but that's what makes them so much fun to _try_ to mix! When it works, it sounds _good_. I've only really pulled off a good mix with a Mills track one or two times, but those are mixes that (when I listen to them on tape afterwards) make me feel really good about being a DJ.

quoted 4 lines Mills and Hood records are not typically "DJ friendly" yet are very

> Mills and Hood records are not typically "DJ friendly" yet are very > highly respected by DJ's, and I'll venture to say that Mills is arguably > the best DJ of his genre in the world. (not indended to start flames or > debate, but I believe this is true).

While I, alas, have never gotten to hear _anybody_ from Detroit spin (the West Coast in general being more or less techno-hostile (but very house-friendly) and Montana specifically being pretty poor in the hot-shit event department), I would have no problem believing that Mills is a mixing _god_, if how he DJs is anything like how he mixes down his own tracks. And, as I referred to above, Mills makes you try harder to mix his music (if there is a bias towards Jeff here, it's because the only Rob Hood stuff I own are his very old releases on Underground Resistance, which are far from representative of what he's been up to recently, from what I can gather), but the extra effort generally is rewarded. He himself is a DJ, he knows what he likes to spin, and he creates music that does what he likes. Or so I would guess.

quoted 15 lines If you hate "a looped beat ad nauseaum," as you say, then you

> If you hate "a looped beat ad nauseaum," as you say, then you > should listen before buying, but do appreciate the structure and short(er) > length of the tracks. But the tracks are no-bullshit, straight-up pure > techno, IMHO, and waste no time in "noodling" or un-motivated ambient > atmosphere, yet they still have "soul" in some dark way. A great example > of this is the track "Core" on Robert Hood's "Internal Empire," on the > M-plant label. Even the name of the track suggests it's feel. :) > > Recommended Listening: > > Jeff Mills > (many records on the AXIS label, which I think is "his" label) > "Cycle 30" 12" which has about 8 cool locked-groove loops > on the b-side > "GROWTH" 12"

Don't forget X-103 - Atlantis X-102 - Explores the Rings of Saturn which are way-out-there experimental stuff, and probably the most relevant to a vast majority of IDM's subscribers. Ambient, hardcore, trance, and just about everything else get their moments here. X-102 - The Planet X-101 - Sonic Destroyer old-style but fun old 12"s on UR/Axis. Not as wacky as Mills' other stuff (read: closer to normal), but just as good. Waveform Transmission v1 (I've got a copy of this on the way me as we speak, and I'm totally psyched to actually _own_ it) Waveform Transmission v3 The Extremist 12" Really, all of these are good listening music, and have brains to spare. Mills is probably the best example (that I can think of) of an artist who consistently works under a strong, overarching aesthetic. If you like Mills' stuff, you'd also probably enjoy almost everything on Basic Channel. They have a similarly warped hi-fi-meets-lo-fi approach to production and they cover all the bases from ambient through really hard-edged stuff. Their music isn't even that hard to find anymore! The two things to keep in mind are: 1) Unfortunately, no BC stuff has been put out on CD, except for the odd compilation appearance (and they are odd -- BC tracks have popped up on everywhere from new electronica to Tresor to R&S). 2) As with all Detroit music, it pays to check the pressing quality before you buy the record. I don't know what it is about Detroit records, but I have gotten some really gnarly pressings from that part of the world.

quoted 2 lines I hope that helps. It sure isn't what I consider to be IDM but hey, it's

> I hope that helps. It sure isn't what I consider to be IDM but hey, it's > damn good. :)

Hah! I'm one of those evil revisionist thinkers that think a lot more stuff could be included under the term "intelligent dance music" without it losing its intended meaning. There really is only so much, in the 365 days that constitute a year, you can say about Speedy J, Autechre, Polygon Window, the Black Dog, B12 (not that there's any danger of _them_ getting overdiscussed on this list), FUSE, and the rest of the AI and RePHLeX crews without the discussion turning kind of stale. I think it's pretty sad that we degenerate as often as we do into prolonged discussions on the availability of certain records (see my next message, where I expand on this ready-to-be-flambeed idea). I _do_ think all of the above is IDM, and really good IDM to boot!

quoted 1 line Sorry this reply was so long.......

> Sorry this reply was so long.......

I'm doubly sorry, but only if you find what I had to say boring. I _like_ long messages, when they're substantive (like Matt's was).

quoted 6 lines peace,

> peace, > _______________________________________________________________________ > Matt MacQueen GROWTH. > Interface and Hypermedia Designer/Programmer > Communication Technology Laboratory, Michigan State Univeristy > _______________________________________________________________________

yrz in splendor, ozymandias ozymandias G desiderata AKA Forrest L Norvell AKA DJ AladdinSane GCS/CW/DJ d- H++ s++:-- !g p1 !au a- w+++ v+++ C++(---) U?++++(----)$ P--- L 3 E++ N++ K++ W---(-----) M++ V-- -po+ Y++>+++ t@ 5- jx R-- G'' !tv b+++ D++ B-- e++ u*(**) h-- f++ r++ n++ x+(*)

From: IN%"macqueen@student.msu.edu" 22-JAN-1995 15:19:12.37 To: IN%"portnoy@chaph.usc.edu" "Sean Joseph Portnoy" CC: IN%"idm@hyperreal.com" Subj: RE: ai 2 comp comment, Jeff Mills Return-path: <idm-owner@hyperreal.com> Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by OCVAXA.CC.OBERLIN.EDU (PMDF V4.3-7 #7710) id <01HM5GZ4OTQO000219@OCVAXA.CC.OBERLIN.EDU>; Sun, 22 Jan 1995 15:19:05 EST Received: by taz.hyperreal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) id MAA03447; Sun, 22 Jan 1995 12:08:39 -0800 Received: by taz.hyperreal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) id MAA03441; Sun, 22 Jan 1995 12:08:38 -0800 Received: from student5.cl.msu.edu by taz.hyperreal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA03434; Sun, 22 Jan 1995 12:08:35 -0800 Received: from [35.8.189.29] by student5.cl.msu.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/MSU-2.10) id AA157140; Sun, 22 Jan 1995 14:57:47 -0500 Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 15:00:20 -0500 From: macqueen@student.msu.edu (Matt MacQueen) Subject: Re: ai 2 comp comment, Jeff Mills Sender: owner-idm@hyperreal.com X-Sender: macqueen@student5.msu.edu To: Sean Joseph Portnoy <portnoy@chaph.usc.edu> Cc: idm@hyperreal.com Message-id: <9501221957.AA157140@student5.cl.msu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Precedence: bulk Sean Joseph Portnoy <portnoy@chaph.usc.edu> said:

quoted 9 lines i am a poor and thus infrequent idm purchaser who picked up the artifical

>i am a poor and thus infrequent idm purchaser who picked up the artifical >intellignece 2 comp >to get a sample of autechre, b12 and hia before plunking >down $$ on their own full-length >stuff. >i must say i was fairly disappointed with the comp. except, of course, for >the always >excellent black dog (aka balil) and their "parasight" production. >this may be a bit of >flame-bait material, but i have a couple of gripes with >the idm "style" evident on ai 2. that >is, a very long intro that usually >consists of some noodling around with synths and then >finally the beat kicks >in.

Funny, I got in the "noodling" debate with a professor last thursday (he was formally trained in acoustic guitar) who really couldn't understand reasons for and appreciation of "ambient" music and some of what I would call "IDM" .... but that's another argument. :) (!) Instead of dwelling on that, let me suggest a few tracks that might be more to your liking. If what bothers you about some slower/listening tracks is their long washy intros, or seeming "lack of form" before the beats kick in, you might consider some more stripped-down or what has been called "minimalist" techno. But if you like the watery sampley sounds of amorphous androgynous, this is absolutely nothing like that. It can be repetitive too, but that's minimalism for ya'. :) I am thinking in particular about the recent work of Jeff Mills and Robert Hood. For those hung-up on the unfortunately necessary labeling of techno, (I know, me too) this is for the record, probably not a whole like IDM and definitely not characterized by traditionally "ambient" traits. This is short, fast and often very cold techno. But really nothing like the "hardcore" techno I associate with labels like Drop Bass, Re-Load, or recent DJAX records. In short, it's stripped down, darker Detroit, less acidic, if acidic at all! If there is a 303 used at all, it's prob. not used in the "typical" acidic way. A trademark of Mills and Hood is the no-nonsense method of getting right to the meat of track, no bullshit, all form. Mills and Hood make relatively short tracks (I guess 4-8 minutes each, I've never really timed them but 3 can easily fit on one side of a 12"). I admire this, I think it's harder to squeeze the essence of a techno song under 5 minutes because so much of it depends on intricate layers, which are typically "broken down" to appreciate. Mill's "Cycle 30" record is characterized by short loops and un-typical structures of phasing and out-of-phasing, some weird delays overlapping, but overall less "special effects processing," stark beats, more Detroit feel, and no warm-long "trancy" chords, and basically un-typical acid, or no acid at all. The beats are un-typical of most techno, no solo 909 kicks at the intro, often it usually starts with a short non-percussive loop, then perhaps another loops are added (quickly), and it's often hard to tell right when the kick drum comes in. I love that, but *damn* is it hard to mix in and out of during a set. The structures don't have the usual breaks at the 8 counts, either, they make their own structures and are not the typical "add or subtract something every 8 or 16 phrases" like house music and a lot of "dancey" techno usually follows. Mills and Hood records are not typically "DJ friendly" yet are very highly respected by DJ's, and I'll venture to say that Mills is arguably the best DJ of his genre in the world. (not indended to start flames or debate, but I believe this is true).

quoted 6 lines can anyone help me come up with a buying list? btw, stuff i have bought and

>can anyone help me come up with a buying list? btw, stuff i have bought and >liked includes > polygon window, black dog's bytes and some of the amorphous androgynous stuff. > i need to find some stuff that suits my taste (shorter tracks, innovative use >of beats equal >to other experimentation with sounds) for my increasingly >infrequent trips to the record store.

If you hate "a looped beat ad nauseaum," as you say, then you should listen before buying, but do appreciate the structure and short(er) length of the tracks. But the tracks are no-bullshit, straight-up pure techno, IMHO, and waste no time in "noodling" or un-motivated ambient atmosphere, yet they still have "soul" in some dark way. A great example of this is the track "Core" on Robert Hood's "Internal Empire," on the M-plant label. Even the name of the track suggests it's feel. :) Recommended Listening: Jeff Mills (many records on the AXIS label, which I think is "his" label) "Cycle 30" 12" which has about 8 cool locked-groove loops on the b-side "GROWTH" 12" Robert Hood "Minimal Nation" a 2 x 12" pack that defines the genre, amazingly dark "Internal Empire" 4 smart short tracks, wonderfully dense, fast. Mode Selector a new artist on the Planet E label, (with other projects going on too). at times warmer than Mills and Hood but still dense, hard, minimal at times. Has a track featured on the new Planet E compilation CD called "raindrops" and two 12"'s and an LP due sometime later in 1995. I hope that helps. It sure isn't what I consider to be IDM but hey, it's damn good. :) Sorry this reply was so long....... peace, _______________________________________________________________________ Matt MacQueen GROWTH. Interface and Hypermedia Designer/Programmer Communication Technology Laboratory, Michigan State Univeristy _______________________________________________________________________

On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, MORGAN GEIST wrote:

quoted 15 lines Hi.

> Hi. > > > Robert Hood > > "Minimal Nation" a 2 x 12" pack that defines the genre, > > I want this. > > > "Internal Empire" 4 smart short tracks, wonderfully dense, fast. > > Oh, yes! Listening to it right now. Buy this immediately if you're into this > sort of stuff. Better, way better than "The Protien Valve" imho. Great > stuff. > > -morgan geist >If anyone can get hold of this doublepack I would be most interested in

taking it off their hands. Get in touch, and give me a price - cheers, Graham Scott c648574@cclabs.missouri.edu "24 hour 23 people"