djkc <djkc@blkbox.com> writes:
quoted 4 lines I agree, he doesn't. So, I'm wondering how he's becoming a success.> I agree, he doesn't. So, I'm wondering how he's becoming a success.
> You say it's because it's "GOOD MUSIC", but who are you to say that the
> above artists (Pearl Jam, Robin S) are NOT good music? As I said before,
> it's taste...opinion...there are no rights or wrongs.
Well, actually I don't feel that way. There certainly *IS* bad music out
there. I think 99% of the people here on IDM would agree with me that
Richard James is much more talented than Eddie Vedder. And I'd rather not
get into the subjectivism thing here in IDM. As for who I am to say that
those bands are not making good music, I'm someone who has been exposed to
far more different styles of music than the average listener, which is the
main reason why I am convinced that everyone should be exposed to music
other than the current mainstream norm.
quoted 2 lines How is it OBVIOUS that he's not doing it for the money? Do you know him> How is it OBVIOUS that he's not doing it for the money? Do you know him
> personally? Just cause he says it in a magazine doesn't mean it's true.
I'm saying this not because I read it in a magazine; to the contrary, I've
never seen him talking about the money thing either way. I'm saying it
based on common sense and the music that he's making. If he were in it for
the money, he'd be "producing" for rap "musicians" and making pop music.
If I am wrong, and he IS doing it for the money, then at the very least I
think you will agree he picked an unlikely method for making an easy buck.
quoted 5 lines He may start to like the money if he doesn't yet...then what? Will he become> He may start to like the money if he doesn't yet...then what? Will he become
> a sell-out like Robin S? (Just to let you know MY opinion - which is
> irrelevant to the main debate - I could care less if he made millions or went
> TOP 40, just as long as I get to listen to it cause he *IS* one of my
> favorites).
I agree. Really I don't care if he's doing it for the money, since I feel
he *deserves* it. My argument is that techno artists like Moby and Aphex
Twin
quoted 1 line You say he's anything but commercial, meaning he hasn't sold much yet?> You say he's anything but commercial, meaning he hasn't sold much yet?
Meaning he's not making music like everyone else you hear on the radio.
Sure, he's on MTV, but name one other song on MTV that sounds like "On".
He's unique. Commercialism and commercial appeal to myself, and to a great
number of record company executives means more of the same old shit. Techno
artists as a whole are totally going against that trend, which is why
techno music is superior to current mainstream pop radio.
quoted 3 lines Somehow I got the impression that he was the leading seller in the techno> Somehow I got the impression that he was the leading seller in the techno
> underground (whatever that is).....well I mean, among the rave-style artists,
> he's become a hit. How is he less commercial than Moby?
I'm 99% sure that he's not. I am 99.9% sure that Moby has sold more records
than he, and from the figures I've seen for sales of some of his 12"es,
he's not even close. One of them (can't remember which one offhand, maybe
analogue bubblebath) sold something like 30,000 (actually, that number
_may_ be as low as 18,000, I can't remember the exact figure offhand). The
Goodmen's "Giving It Up" sold about 160,000 for comparision.
Moby's music is a bit further away from the bleeding edge of avante-garde
music (which I consider the farthest opposite of "commercial" music) but I
really don't think he's a sellout either. He's doing his own unique thing.
quoted 4 lines Exactly! It's not so much as just naivete, but also there is the element> Exactly! It's not so much as just naivete, but also there is the element
> of elitism which is wholey anti-rave. There are ravers who don't like other
> ravers, and it shouldn't be this way...not only should music and events be
> bringing us together, but there should be opened-mindeness which does too.
:-) What's really funny is that we're basically saying the same things, and
yet it looks like we're disaggreeing.
quoted 2 lines So I'm not sure if you may be naive or elitist, as it seems like you began> So I'm not sure if you may be naive or elitist, as it seems like you began
> your message flaming Pearl Jam - Robin S.
Ok, I admit that this is an opinion. Some person totally off their fucking
rocker (again, IMHO) might just prefer Robin S. or Pearl Jam to Scubadevils
or Orbital. But I think a virgin listener (in the aural sense folks) would
choose IDM over grunge. I refuse to believe that some people have genes
that make them like grunge or 50 pop songs that sound quite literally the
same.
quoted 3 lines Maybe it's just me reading it as "Aphex is successful because he's _GOOD_> Maybe it's just me reading it as "Aphex is successful because he's _GOOD_
> while the others aren't". If this is so, then how are they as much a
> success as they are?
Marketing. This is what I've been saying: *people don't have an
alternative*. I firmly believe that if techno artists were as well known
and represented (on record labels with major distribution, heavy MTV
rotation, etc) as rock and pop musicians most of this week's Top 40 songs
wouldn't even be in the top 400.
I grew up listening to pop rock because it's all that was accessible to me.
It's still this way for many people, who may not have import record stores
or non-music corporation controlled radio stations by which they can gain
access to other forms of music.
quoted 4 lines I would MUCH rather have MTV watchers listening to Moby,> > I would MUCH rather have MTV watchers listening to Moby,
> > The Aphex Twin, or the Orb than to 50,000 Variations of 'Rhythm is a
> > Dancer.' I'd much rather have them watching 'On' than some shite top 40
> > track.quoted 1 line I would too. But you're calling everything else shite. If it all is shite,> I would too. But you're calling everything else shite. If it all is shite,
No, actually I was calling the 20 or so club tracks that have a spitting
image of the sequence from "Rhythm is a Dancer" as their "original music".
Even rock musicians rarely get away with _that_.
quoted 1 line then where do they deserve to be other than the Top40 charts & playlists?> then where do they deserve to be other than the Top40 charts & playlists?
Quite frankly, nonexistent. Music made for the _sole_ purpose of making
money (and I've seen quite enough to convince me that most of today's top
40 is) is shite. I will just laugh if someone disagrees with that opinion.
I guess that makes me an elitist of some form :)
quoted 4 lines Your answer to this would be totally opinion...personal taste.> Your answer to this would be totally opinion...personal taste.
> Those guys got to be Top 40 because of something...could it be that there
> music is "GOOD" according to way more many people than the number that
> even ever HEARD of Aphex Twin? Imagine that...people liking Pearl Jam and
_No_. What i am saying is that these people like these groups because
they've never had the chance to hear anything better. The only reason these
people believe this music is good is because they don't know of anything
else out there. It's a commercial form of brainwashing.
quoted 7 lines OK, sarcasm aside, I just want to point out that there is relatively a> OK, sarcasm aside, I just want to point out that there is relatively a
> small number of people that love Aphex and are making him a success by buying
> his commercial music recordings...this means a small group, which I don't
> want to see become an elitist group...but rather a select few with good
> judgement (i.e., have made good choice in an artist such as Richard James,
> who, because of his rare music, shouldn't not be allowed to become Top 40,
> and *I* think he should!).
Huh? I think i agree. I want everyone to hear techno, IDM and ambient (and
trance, and world music, and traditional arabic music, and _everything_
else out there). I am very disappointed by the current pop music out there,
and so I am eager for people to "see the light" by the exposure of techno
to the public.
quoted 3 lines As I said, it's opinion...there is no absolute justice in who deserves massiv> As I said, it's opinion...there is no absolute justice in who deserves massiv
> popularity. And don't tell me that it's lack of money and promotions; music
> should sell itself based on quality, moreso than quantity.
It *SHOULD* sell itself based on quality. However, my entire point is based
upon the fact that music is currently selling itself largely upon
*availability*. Also it's important to remember that millions of people
aren't really making their own minds up about what they listen to: a select
group of people in A&R positions are. It's these peoples' opinions that are
dictating what becomes popular.
quoted 1 line If quality is good demand rises, and popularity is inevitable.> If quality is good demand rises, and popularity is inevitable.
Not if no one hears the music! And this of course is the problem with the
elitist techno scene and the music industry as a whole.
quoted 3 lines I too. I was not saying that I am disappointed, but wondering why others> I too. I was not saying that I am disappointed, but wondering why others
> weren't, as it's common that such a thing happens; i.e., artist goes
> mainstream and fans lose that feeling of being "special."
I dunno. I have seen a few disgruntled people, but most of these people
weren't terribly enamored of RJ in the first place. I think people are
finally accepting that selfishness (ie "doesn't it suck that big life is
going to release all the rare Orb stuff so millions will own my until-now
ultra-rare bathroom recording of Perpetual Dawn that only nineteen people
have ever heard before) does not enhance our rave culture. At least I hope
this is the case.
quoted 7 lines There are plenty of truly deserving artist who HAVE been rewarded!> There are plenty of truly deserving artist who HAVE been rewarded!
> Believe it or not, millions of people think that Michael Jackson and Madonna
> deserve the rewards they've gotten. It's all opinion in what you consider
> truly deserving. There are plenty of starving artists out there (including
> me) who atleast one person thinks they deserve reward (hopefully not just me!
> but it's basically MAJORITY RULE in the matter of who has most records sold
> and goes Top 40.
Sad to say, but it's not the case. The market is not dictating the product.
The product is dictating the market. As I said before, a tiny number of
people in high places are deciding which artists will suceed and which
won't. However, it's basically fact that technology will make these people
obselete within the next twenty years and distribution will be as easy for
you and I as for Moby and Madonna.
quoted 4 lines Flame away, but if you ask me, fuck the underground. Techno and IDM would> > Flame away, but if you ask me, fuck the underground. Techno and IDM would
> > do alot more good if the listenership weren't so restricted to an elitist
> > few. Always keep this in mind folks: You don't deserve to be able to listen
> > to 'halycon' any more than Eddie Vedder does. :)quoted 1 line I agree with you more than I flame you! :)> I agree with you more than I flame you! :)
yes, we actually are agreeing much more than disagreeing.
quoted 1 line It shouldn't matter if the listenership is restricted to a FEW, just as long> It shouldn't matter if the listenership is restricted to a FEW, just as long
whoah. it does matter. i don't believe the listenership should be
"restricted" at all. i think it should be encouraged to grow as much as
possible. My opinion (g) is that any restriction can only hurt the culture
and music.
quoted 2 lines as they don't have that elite, arrogant, egotistic attitude which could> as they don't have that elite, arrogant, egotistic attitude which could
> bring infamy upon the fans, or worse, the artists they listen to.
This I agree with. Fuck elitish bullshit :)
quoted 1 line Nice topic, eh? :)> Nice topic, eh? :)
:-)
- Dan
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The 8-BIt Collective - Transmission 23 - edrone dan nicholson,
Clonor the Other - Finnish Techno Zyndicate 8bit@vlad.bowker.com
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