I understand your pessimism Joshua. I've decided to remain optomistic untill the results come in because not because I think iit is more "true" but because I think it gives a pyschological advantage. It's the same reason I belive in free will. And I think advancement is a type of evolution.
I also like your utopian version of the future. It is similar to what the Venus Project proposes. And I think it is a good first step. To oversimplify it I would call it Tribal Anarchy. The only problem with Tribal Anarchy is that if the world is not interconnected and having everyone both not having to worry about basic needs and ideological persecution (being kicked out if you dont follow rules) then its easy for one group to become more powerfull than the others and take over the rest. Interconnection and funneling people takes care much of this.
I am uncertain if the world has reached its carrying capacity or not. I havent seen any info on it. I do know that technological advances increase carrying capacity, and that it is ok to let people die off. Populations tend to stabelize when a certain level of education and abudance are introduced to a social system.
I really like the idea of starting with intercontected high-tech tribal anarchy. Thanks for helping solidify my thoughts. Any other feedback I welcome.
Thanks again,
zaq> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:50:51 -0700> From: joshua@ropeswingcities.com> To: idm@hyperreal.org> Subject: Re: [idm] Zeitgeist: Addendum (OT)> > In my mind, the unfortunate truth is that humanity isn't necessarily capable> of coming up with a workable answer. time and time again we have come up> with solutions to problems, but they have consistently outpaced our ability> to rationally implement them in a way that is not destructive. we became> masters of our environment due to an evolutionary trait that allowed us the> ability to have abstract reasoning. the argument can be made that since the> introduction of agriculture, we have pretty much stopped evolving entirely,> when you understand that evolution isn't advancement, it's adaptation. our> problem solving skills have led us to create more and more complex systems> for us to exist inside of, and we have a wealth of information at our> fingertips now. is this evolution? no. it's advancement.> > i don't honestly think that any utopian projects for saving the world can> work, i don't think that our species is equipped with the ability to get> along with one another, we are still a tribal, destructive monkey creature,> this has not changed since recorded time, and i don't see it changing any> time soon. I don't know much about the Venus project, but i would guess> taking stock of the worlds resources and figuring out how many people could> live on the planet in their utopian future would bring them to the> realization that quite a lot of people are going to have to die. I think the> numbers are that before the industrial revolution there were never more than> 1bil humans on the planet. As soon as we have programmable matter, we will> use it to kill people. we will create diseases and weapons with it so that> we can kill our enemies. anything good that will be done with it will be> saved for the rich, or manufactured for the poor and distributed by the> rich.> > i think that the only way we can achieve a utopian future is by coming out> as survivors on the far side of a global meltdown, which is sad and> unfortunate... we are not a very proactive species, but rather very> reactive, and that means that we continually respond only after it's too> late.> > what I would propose, if we were to try and keep a standard of living that> is anywhere close to what we have now, and really, it could lead to higher> standards of living, are small autonomous communes that govern themselves on> a societal basis. You would have your farmers and agriculturalists who> provide food for the commune, and in return all of their other needs such as> shelter, goods and liesure time are provided by the rest of the group. they> would only have to work in four hour shifts a few days a week, leaving them> plenty of time to pursue what it really is that monkey creatures want to do,> which is sit around and feel the warm sun on their skin. each commune would> also have a working class that produced some good that was used for trade in> the outside world with other autonomous communes, they too would work four> hours a day just a few days a week with the rest of their time left to doing> what they want with their lives. and on top of that a dedicated community of> artists and scientists producing the advancements that make us so giddy. it> would just be that there would no longer be a controlling interest in these> advancements and people would be free to create as they see fit. the> communes would have their own guidelines for participation in the system,> and offenders would be ostracized from the group, as the only way systems> like this can work is if everyone involved is personally responsible to> everyone else, which is why these would have to work on small scales of> perhaps... 1,000 people per group as a top number maybe. i dunno, i'm no> social scientist.> > it's not a complete theory, and i'm sure there are oh so many holes in it,> but it's what i think, i just don't know that it's possible.> > > > ---------> joshua.> i'd rather die terrified than live forever.> > > > 2008/11/12 Z Moser <roachgod69@hotmail.com>> > >> > BTW. Sam. What do you propose? Have you come up with any viable solutions> > on your own. Or do you think there is no solution? Or do you think there is> > no problem?> >> > zaa> >> >> >> > > From: roachgod69@hotmail.com> > > To: idm@hyperreal.org> > > Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:30:27 +0000> > > Subject: RE: [idm] Zeitgeist: Addendum (OT)> > >> > >> > > I get what you are saying. From what I understand of the of the Venus> > > Project another one of the first steps is to take an accounting of the> > > worlds limits in order to see how many people it can support in a> > > stable ecosystem and with the building materials available or new ones> > > that we will come up with. We are already in the first stages of> > > producing programmable matter that takes on the properties we assign> > > it. Do you know how much steal is available at this point?> > >> > > Ill will check out Money Masters. Does it provide solutions, or only> > outline a problem?> > >> > > zaq> > >> > >> > > > From: sam@forum8.co.jp> > > > To: idm@hyperreal.org> > > > Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:50:24 +0900> > > > Subject: RE: [idm] Zeitgeist: Addendum (OT)> > > >> > > > Check out a movie called "The Money Masters". It's a 3 hour + doco on> > why a> > > > fractional reserve banking system run by a private central bank sucks.> > I'm> > > > not saying I agree with the plan proposed in that either, I'm just> > saying it> > > > seems a lot more practical than our utopian friends at The Venus> > Project> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > The other reason I thought the new Zeitgeist movie was a bit too> > utopian is> > > > that I'm very much unconvinced that we live in a world of abundance. I> > > > would hardly say we have an abundant supply of whatever that form of> > steel> > > > was that they proposed to build their cities on water out of (memory> > steel?)> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > From: Z Moser [mailto:roachgod69@hotmail.com]> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:02 PM> > > > To: sam@forum8.co.jp; idm hyperreal> > > > Subject: RE: [idm] Zeitgeist: Addendum> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Yes. Thiis was my main problem with the movie as well. There is a good> > > > explanation of why things are the way they are and how they could be.> > There> > > > is very little info on how to get from here to there. Is this the only> > > > reason you think it sucked badly? Do you have any suggestion, or know> > any> > > > movie/media that gives information on how to go about moving things> > into a> > > > transitional period? This is what my main interest of study is right> > now.> > > >> > > > zaq> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > From: sam@forum8.co.jp> > > > > To: idm@hyperreal.org> > > > > Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:34:20 +0900> > > > > Subject: RE: [idm] Zeitgeist: Addendum> > > > >> > > > > I thought the movie sucked pretty badly, just quietly. It had some> > merits> > > > -> > > > > the section about the economics of our situation was somewhat> > > > interesting..> > > > > however, there was no detail about the path to the utopian dream at> > the> > > > end> > > > >> > > > > -----Original Message-----> > > > > From: Z Moser [mailto:roachgod69@hotmail.com]> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 12:20 PM> > > > > To: rick@glowdot.com; idm hyperreal> > > > > Subject: RE: [idm] Zeitgeist: Addendum> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Oh. I get it. Its not that it's because it isn't IDM. Its because you> > have> > > > a> > > > > bias. In that case I will ignore you.> > > > >> > > > > Thanks for being clear,> > > > > zaq> > > > >> > > > > > Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:59:18 -0800> > > > > > From: rick@glowdot.com> > > > > > To: idm@hyperreal.org> > > > > > Subject: Re: [idm] Zeitgeist: Addendum> > > > > >> > > > > > Charles Goodwin wrote:> > > > > > > Ya know, I never quite understood why people get so upset every> > time> > > > > anyone posts anything that is not directly related to IDM, the same> > thing> > > > > used to happen on the Tech-house list and now its dead.> > > > > > >> > > > > > Because this is the IDM list not the FW: FW: RE: RE: RE: FW: RE:> > OMG> > > > > > ZEITGIEST MIND BLOWN MUST SEE BU$$SH = HITLER CONSPIRACY list,> > that's> > > > why.> > > >> > >> > > _________________________________________________________________> > > Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious> > email.> > >> >
http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_safety_112008> >> > _________________________________________________________________> > Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious> > email.> >> >
http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_safety_112008> >
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