hey - thanks for the reminder of why i'm on *this* list...
-s
On Mon, 2003-04-07 at 15:35, Sogax wrote:
quoted 381 lines Here's some of my thoughts about techno in general. What comes to IDM /> Here's some of my thoughts about techno in general. What comes to IDM /
> braindance / glitch the point of view Sean Horton threw in other email was
> pretty good.
>
> I'd say IDM is just another term stuck from early days when FSOL, Aphex
> Twin and rest of Warpish stuff started pouring out. After 1988 summer,
> people were so full of ACID (music and the substance) that they needed to
> chill down. Finally when hardcore boom went over 300BPM and dancefloors
> started filling with speed-deaths; chillout sessions landed on techno
> culture permanently.
>
> A lot of evolution is to do with fact of people grewing old. As first
> generation of ravers, clubbers, promoters, DJs and producers finally
> realized they will end up as another MDMA/speed/gamma body on the
> dancefloor unless they eaze down. Also clubbers wanted to listen techno in
> home too, but after hard drug-induced nights hardbanging beat didn't work.
> They wanted to relax.
>
> Intelligence is just a word in IDM. To me IDM is stuff, which can fit both
> to dancefloor and home, but mainly toward home listening. But it's a grey
> area. Rephlex label laid a new somewhat elitistic term braindance to
> describe their IDM sound.
>
> Personally as an artist & producer I aim to sound, which kicks ass on a
> dancefloor, but has nuances for deeper listening. As I have explored many
> areas my sound is
> rather eclectic mixture from deep 'anything'. Philosophy, purity and point
> of view is
> another moniker describing 'something'. techno, house, electro, dnb with
> 'idm' flavour.
>
> IDM, ha who cares. UIDM, unintelligent dance music. I like Mr. X and Mr Y.
> Marusha rox too. Does that make me unintelligent? But if I listen also
> Susumu Yokota does that make me instantly intelligent? Does that really
> matter at all?
>
> Then lenghty about definition of techno and detroit techno. Not exactly IDM
> topic, but I gathered you focus also on electronic music & techno in
> generally. We don't want to be too puristic or do we? I'd say repetition
> with evolution
> and soul into sound can be intelligent, but in a different aspect.
>
> To generalize - IDM needs more conscious concentration to dig into deeper
> into sound. I call that an ACTIVE PROCESS. Detroit techno as Juan
> Atkins/Derrick May/Submerge/Axis/Tresor etc.. lay out repetitive sound,
> which has soul and slow evolution throughout sound. It goes immediately
> into your system (body & mind) and is more PASSIVE PROCESS. So repetition
> in detroit is more important than the taste and taste is more important
> than the repetition in IDM.
>
> Still both definitions; both styles aim to exactly same thing. To bypass
> that 7 second layer. To break conscious layer and open subconscious layer.
> I personally have defined some of my own stuff as in-troit or nu-troit as I
> can't really or don't want to categorise
> my sound. I just do, rest be the judge.
>
> To me idm may be many styles, not just 'idm'. I'd get rid of 'I(ntelligent)
> ' part. It is just too elitistic. I'd call IDM as DDM - Deeper Dance Music.
> (my own term)
>
> Many years ago I did listing for all electronic music genres. Out of
> interest and out of fun. Also been digging history. Listed couple hundred
> categories. Mostly just one-timers.
>
> Techno in early 90's had a very distinctive sound, but these days inside
> scene techno means also any electronic repetitive music. So, just like
> electronica eats kind of anything, 'techno' does the same to most of the
> people.
>
> Some artist once said "true techno doesn't have any vocals". Hah. What a
> definition.
> Categorising may be fun, but more interesting is to find links in history.
> Artists, labels and releases, which link together. Afterall it is the
> actual sound, music, clubs, raves and people who define the culture around
> ANY sound.
>
> Debussy, 1920's Jazz, Javanese music, James Brown, Tangerine Dreams,
> Kraftwerk, Afrika Bambaata, Juan Atkins, Derrick May, 808 State, Jeff
> Mills, Aztec Mystics, Underground Resistance, The Advent, a guy called
> gerald, LFO, KLF, Junior Vasquez, Larry Levan, Back 2 Basics, Stakker, Joey
> Beltram, Josh Wink, Scan X, Luke Slater, Richie Hawtin, Cari Lekebusch,
> Nightmares on Wax, Horrorist, Adam Beyer, Speedy J, Inner City, Johannes
> Heil, Surgeon, Thomas Krome, Funk D'Void, Chris Liebing, Mauro Picotto,
> Dave Clarke, Der Dritte Raum, Carola, CJ Bolland, Umek, Kevin Saunderson,
> Carl Craig etc...
>
> Don't forget DJ Hell if you seek puristic hard techno.
>
> Submerge, Axis, Tresor, Transmat, Drumcode, Mo'Wax, R & S, Novamute, Plus
> 8, Metroplex, Basic Channel, Soma, Trope, Bush, Red Planet, Planet E,
> Iridite Production, Underground Resistance, Djax-Up, F Communications,
> Petra, Hardwax, Ovum, Peacefrog...
> 70's disco, acid House, club, house, F Communications sound, mainstream
> house
> Rotterdam Terror Corps, dutch gabber, UK gabber, hardcore, happy hardcore,
> garage
> detroit -> techno -> monotrack minimalism -> cologne
>
> summer of 1988
>
> Today, old-skool techno is not produced in that scale as in early 90's.
> Sound has moved into much delicate direction and is much eclectic. Going
> towards detroit and cologne sound and deeper stuff copies Warp, Rephlex,
> FSOL etc. turning into something else than techno.
> Harder techno drops mostly under progressive house and hard house genres.
> Even harder sound turns into either hardcore or monotrack. Maybe modern
> Love Parade posse techno is closest to techno definition. but electro and
> retro sound tends to be the trend these days.
>
> What is techno in retrospective?
>
> Stakker - Humanoid is one of the first techno tracks to transfer that sound
> from underground to public arenas. MTV and Partyzone were one of the first
> messengers to mainstream audience.
>
> Modern techno has gone toward soulful qualities. More melody and more
> depth. But that is not a new phenomenom. Model 500 / Cybotron & other
> pioneers were influenced by 70's rock sound and Kraftwerk. Techno was very
> eclectic, experimenting and with 'soul' in early days. Gradually sound went
> rougher and rougher until 1988-1992 techno culture turned rapidly into a
> business just like any other music business. Sound divided roughly in to a
> 'home listening' and 'club music'. Some of the stuff is released as a vinyl
> only.
>
> Technology to produce music has definitely had a great impact on sound. Now
> we have way more control with more ways to experiment than tens years ago.
> Yet, many follow relics. Respect relics and respect old ways, but do not be
> blinded by our sound ancestors. Progress; techno should be eclectic as
> well. Larry Levan and famous Paradise Garage club played very eclectic
> stuff from any genre from any music style if it just fit the set and
> reflected the mood of clubbers. Pompous Junior Vasquez with Twilo and Sound
> Factory has been doing the same these days. Music and sets were much
> eclectic.
>
> Purism has conquered most of the clubs and events. There is hard house,
> house, detroit, trance, dnb, hip-hop and so on. All the clubs and artists
> want to distinct themselves to some genres.
>
> We need genres as our guide. To set some sort of 'map' of music, but it is
> only a map.
> Purism is sometimes a good thing, but we need to go back in history and
> bring back eclectic qualities. No genres, but musical collasions, which
> also challenge a listener & raver to some degree.
>
> Techno as any genre is as said, a term, which adapts into a current set of
> music produced under 'techno' moniker. Releases, which stand out and which
> are remembered as techno classics define techno music. So all genres are
> really a one giant pile of mashed potatoes. IDM adapts in the same way, but
> many use that term as a garbage pile when they can't decipher the style of
> electronic sound.
>
> Die hard ravechildren will always cheer when way too much played Jeff Mills
> - The Bells and billion remixes of it blasts that very distinct sound from
> the speakers. Classics are still played quite a lot as there's so much new
> unknown wannabe techno-DJ's who fell in love to same classic tunes as so
> many before them. Which is not necessarily bad as those classics bring back
> good memories from events you've heard them before.
>
> Techno was melody oriented originally. Early trance was more techno than
> modern trance. Like Art Of Trance, Sven Väth and even Man With No Name.
> Those started out with stuff, which was sort of 'repetitive trance'. Just
> think of a classic trance track Octopussy for example.
>
> Most of really dark very repetitive stuff goes into monotrack, which I
> think has replaced hardcore sound these days to a great degree. Oh, those
> days of Shadowland Terrorists and Thunderdome, Terrordrome, Mayday raves
> and many more. Cheesy Raveyard compilations and thousands of wannabe-
> artists banging hardcore sound out with Octamed tracker. C-Tank started out
> with Octamed. Oldie rumors.
>
> Hardcore scene died the day Johnny Violent topped every other track by
> releasing Burnout. I laughed so hard when I first heard that tune in
> radio. Out of pure cheer. Check it out if you dig dancing to 20 million
> beats per minute. Still there seems to be enough niche market to indie
> hardcore labels to survive and a lot of people are into old-skool gabber.
>
> Noise is not dead and propably will ever be. Noise just is and punk never
> really dies as every generation finds their own 'punk'-culture. Techno with
> 'DIY' phenomenom in early days resembled and still does, a lot of punk
> culture in 70's and 80's. People just started doing shit and some good shit
> in their bedrooms and started doing small gigs in garages and small
> warehouses. They just go and do and do not care what other think.
>
> And where techno stops hardcore starts.
>
> Hardcore, noise, gabber, jungle warfare, speedbass, speedcore etc have been
> influenced by punk culture, which has influenced hardcore rock/noise bands
> today. I think one of the best 'mainstream' examples is Atari Teenage Riot,
> which performs post punk/noise stuff. Singer is unfortunately dead, but
> their video's still rule big time. Just check RevolutionAction. Reminds a
> bit Come To Daddy by Aphex Twin. Ah, don't you just love movies Hellraiser
> and Hellraiser 2 (rest are not worth it)? Dunno where RDJ got his
> inspiration, but "Come To Daddy" is the slogan in first flick. "Come To
> Daddy, we won't hurt you". "are you teasing us? She's teasing us"
>
> Hyperreal IDM definition - quote "[Intelligent Dance Music] means the
> opposite of stupid hardcore."
>
> Yes, _stupid_ hardcore. IDM tends to flow into ambient direction and as
> said
> in that definition - works also in domestic environment = home listening.
>
> Still, some noise acts can be [idm]. Sound, which needs your effort.
> One could dispute whether idm sound is more about aesthetic or about
> artistic qualities.
> Is avant garde or abstract idm? Or just another form of 'art'. As same
> sound could be
> 'easy' or 'hard' depending on a listener.
>
> I really can't tell. But it's good to have some sort of paths around sound
> as rules or
> set of loose guidelines and categories are, as said, only a path, a
> skeleton to adjust
> our views about any culture or society-connection.
>
>
> Then back to sound - techno sound to be specific
> Some oldie techno tracks:
>
> Acen - Trip 2 the Moon Altern 8 - Activ 8 Praga Khan - Move Your Body
> (Injected With a Poison)
>
> Those go more into jungle/breakbeat direction as well, but early Prodigy, 2
> Bad Mice, Jungle Brothers & rest influenced techno sound and vice versa.
> IDM sound is just one continuum and extension of 'simpler sound'.
>
> If you think, we are only 1st and 2nd generation raving, clubbing, DJ's,
> producing,
> promoting, discussing, researching still so young rave-culture and
> subcultures in
> and around it.
>
> Some classic choons
> Phuture - Acid Tracks
> Joey Beltram - Energy Flash
> Juan Atkins - Infoworld
> LFO - LFO
> 808 State - Pacific Aztec Mystics - Jaguar
> Richie Hawtin - Orange
> Underground Resistance - Punisher Dave Clarke: Red 2 (Wisdom to the Wise)
> Derrick May - Strings of Life
> Red Planet - Star Dancer Suburban Knight - The Art of Stalking
> Luke Slater - Inductive Channels
>
> and do not miss these classics
>
> Robert Armani - Blow That Shit Out (Joey Beltram Remix) (from Blow It Out
> 2x12" / ACV)
>
> Jeff Mills - The Bells (Purpose Maker) (maybe one of the most played tunes
> in raves throughout the years)
>
> Josh Wink (aka Winx) - Higher State of Consciousness (Manifesto 12)
>
> Scan X - Earthquake (Earthquake EP / F Communications)
>
> Joey Beltram - Game Form (Tresor)
>
> Choice - Acid Eiffel (Acid Eiffel / Fragile Records) by Laurent Garnier and
> not so known Ludovic Llorca)
>
> Drexciya - Digital Tsunami (Tresor) RIP James Stinson
>
> Point Blank - Meng's Theme (Joey Beltram remix) (Meng's Theme Remixes, R&S
> / RS 94 060, 12")
>
> And couple very interesting not so known faces from detroit scene are Mark
> Grant and Boo Williams.
>
> The Many Definitions of Techno - point of view
>
> If I had to choose only one track to define TECHNO as of today ---
>
> Best tune is impossible and unnecessary to choose, but one track, which
> grabs the essence of techno sound today in my opinion.
>
> for me, it is Funk D'Void - Diabla (Kevin Saunderson Mix) (SOMA/SOMA 112R,
> 12")
> Released in 2001, but is one of the best techno tracks in recent years. A
> true classic.
>
> -----------------
> Then bits and pieces about origins of sound and also some insight about
> jungle & drum'n'bass as IDM with broken beat is like a distant cousin for
> dnb sound and culture. Especially the chillout and experimental stuff.
>
> It is somewhat true that techno is based on sound more than artists. Also
> as long as our race stays pretty much same in evolution wise any repetition
> in any form will be fascinator number one.
>
> Because repetition induces trance and trance induces way to focus on
> ownself. Curiosity on our own mind is not likely to going to disappear
> anywhere.
> Also 135BPM is no coincidence. To average human who has heartbeat around
> ~60-70BPM, 130-135BPM is the most suitable heartbeat rate what comes to
> stamina. Also any movement in range of 2-4Hz is likely to induce trance
> state.
>
> That's what native tribes did and do. They used drugs as well and danced
> around camp fire, trying to get into trance. We haven't changed much in 10
> 000 years have we? there is only bassdrum, bassdrum is the key and the
> core, everything else is irrelevant.
>
> Bruce Lee once said "Before I studied the art, a punch was just a punch and
> a kick was just a kick. Once I began practicing the art, a punch was no
> longer a punch and a kick no longer just a kick. Once I understood the art
> a punch was just a punch and a kick was just a kick"
>
> (the Bruce Lee quote I haven't verified, but it was quoted by some
> individual in
> techno-scene related discussion forum)
>
> happy happy joy joy.. History of electronic music and drum'n'bass started
> around 19th century. Think about Beethoven, those compositions he made
> resemble a lot uplifting trance in a structure.
>
> Jazz was first considered as a phuturistic immoral (satanistic) music and
> was also much related to drugs. It became acceptable only after white folk
> started making same music for white community.
>
> Drum'n'bass has roots in hip-hop, rap and old rhytm'n'blues. First DJ's
> took 70's r'n'b and soul records and started experimenting with them. Most
> of classic breaks in drum'n'bass & jungle are originally ripped illegally
> from old records. James Brown was really pissed on that, but never saw any
> money. Amen break and Apache break are two most famous drumloops, which can
> be identified easily if you have been into scene for some time.
>
> My electronic music experiences started seriously in early 90's with old-
> skool jungle, italo-xtacy-techno and old-skool techno. Music, which was
> really really different in that time. It was like founding a new continent.
>
> BTW urban legend of origins for term jungle tells that members of Afrika
> Bambaata once tried to get a gig in some club. This happened most likely in
> the 80's. Club owner told that "we don't want your jungle music here."
> Using jungle as a mockery for any black music.
>
> Jungle and dnb can be identified as different genres, but these days people
> usually refer drum'n'bass to include all breaks stuff. It is a very
> eclectic genre. There is also mellow stuff if you are not into speedcore,
> speedbass or jungle warfare or UK garage mayhem.
>
> Artcore is a genre for jazzy influenced chillout jungle. Other eaze stuff
> is produced by ie. by LTJ Bukem, Boymerang, Blu Mar Ten and generally all
> stuff by Good Looking Records. To mention only some.
>
> Progression Sessions series by GLR is by far one of the best d'n'b series
> produced. In my
> opinion. If you are into more industrial flavored hard sound the genres to
> look are 2step or neurofunk. Bad Company is very famous for that sound.
> Other talented artists and labels to look are Ed Rush & Optical, Virus,
> Prototype and the legendary label Moving Shadow.
>
> >From jungle side I could mention some legends such as Mickey Finn, Tom &
> Jerry, AK1200 and Congo Natty.
>
> 2-step was mainly invented to get sound, which would be easier to mix by
> DJ's. Main driver in most of 2step tunes is heavy snare with harsh
> bassline. Trance influenced mainstream d'n'b is the current trend. John B
> is one of the first to tamper with producing dnb with heavy trance leads in
> mainstream style. Some work, some don't.
>
> High Contrast - Passion is a very good example of modern 'mainstream' club
> drum'n'bass today.
>
> -
>
> But that's about these topics I have to say now. I know, more about techno
> and dnb than 'idm', but for example posting dnb stuff in dnb discussion
> list is mostly worthless as most of the readers know the stuff already.
>
> Bare such, thou shall be open minded.
>
> .]
>
> Sogax, Deliciound, www.deliciound.net
>
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