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Re: [idm] music thievery (long and ranty -- sorry!)

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◇ merged from 3 subjects: music thievery · music thievery (it is long - if you don't care, don't read...) · music thievery (long and ranty -- sorry!)
2002-07-17 22:04IDM Poll Re: [idm] music thievery
├─ 2002-07-17 22:23EggyToast Re: [idm] music thievery (long and ranty -- sorry!)
└─ 2002-07-17 23:11Mxyzptlk Re: [idm] music thievery
└─ 2002-07-17 23:20Brandon Smith Re: [idm] music thievery
└─ 2002-07-18 00:54Mxyzptlk Re: [idm] music thievery
└─ 2002-07-18 20:10Brandon Smith Re: [idm] music thievery (it is long - if you don't care, don't read...)
└─ 2002-07-18 23:22Mxyzptlk Re: [idm] music thievery (it is long - if you don't care, don't read...)
2002-07-18 09:32Re: [idm] music thievery (long and ranty -- sorry!)
2002-07-18 16:02donna summer Re: [idm] music thievery (long and ranty -- sorry!)
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2002-07-17 22:04IDM PollYes, but, how many people also used a P2P to get a sample of the album, discovered they li
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Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:04:19 -0500
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Re: [idm] music thievery
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Yes, but, how many people also used a P2P to get a sample of the album, discovered they liked it, and then went out and bought it? It can also be seen as free promotion to the artists, especially those who do not get much (if any) radio support. I use kazaa to sample things I *may* like, and if I do, I go to the store and purchase it. I have done this dozens and dozens of times, and I doubt I am alone.
quoted 99 lines From: "reak what" <benelli3000@hotmail.com>>From: "reak what" <benelli3000@hotmail.com> >To: idm@hyperreal.org >Subject: Re: [idm] music thievery >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:08:49 -0500 > >>From: "Irene McC" <substar@iafrica.com> >>Reply-To: substar@iafrica.com >>To: idm@hyperreal.org >>Subject: [idm] music thievery >>Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:43:10 +0200 >> >>Talking about 'mass storage' and MP3's as well as piracy, PLEASE >>everybody, have a look at this excellently written, cogent article: >> >>http://www.janisian.com/article-internet_debacle.html >> >>I >>* >> >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >>For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org > >excellent, well written-Wonderful point about the industry shooting itself >in the foot by putting out shit music- how painfully true. > >but a bit off the mark on one issue::who does downloading REALLY hurt::me > >I am a member of a group that most people on this list are aware of, and >have heard music from, and may or may not like our music. > >I will not name names, figure it out if you can. it is inconsequential > >We have sold 7000 and units since our record dropped in September. By >"idm" >standards, this is a shitload- several times more than what labels like >Schematic, Planet Mu, and certain Warp artists sell-all highly respectable >(and rightly so) labels and artists. > >Here's the rub-how many times have people approached me at a show or a even >a restaurant and said, "dude, i love your record. i got it off soulseek >and >it's just great." > >Now, there's good AND bad in that. It's a beautiful thing that this guy is >jamming my record. That is what I live for! That is why I make music! >But-it is also why I live like a fucking cockroach, even though I have made >a chunk of change on that record (that went right fucking back into the >studio, mind you) > >Here's why::Downloading, while 1)important, 2)useful, 3)practical, 4)fun, >takes money away from the SMALL artists the most. Metallica or Celine Dion >might miss their 6 figures of loss against millions of $$ they have already >made, but for me, the difference between several thousand records sold vs. >being downloaded means several things::1)i won't have to fuck with waiting >tables or data entry bullshit jobs (which i have to at the moment, until >our >next record drops) 2)i can spend more time dedicating myself to making the >best possible music that i can make as a human being, and continue in my >jihad to enrich people's lives with music, the same way the music that i >love enriched my life. i'm not talking about driving a mercedes or >whatever-that's bullshit. i'm talking about rent paid and ramen in the >pantry-totally acceptable comfort level. > >so, from the standpoint of an established "underground" artist, downloading >is both wonderful and horribly detrimental. If those 4000 (random number >less than sales) people that downloaded my record (I have seen several >posts >to this group of people who have liked it but downloaded it-once again, no >names mentioned) had bought it instead, then shit, you motherfuckers would >already have another full length to listen to, if it matters at all. >instead you'll just have to settle for an ep while we pour drinks for the >fucking assholes in tha Benzeeeeezzzzzz and tha Bimmmaaaaaazzzzzzzz > >All in all, the people on this list have been good to me and my band-I AM >NOT WHINING AT YOU ALL. you are on this list because you are a music >lover, >not just bullshit electronic music, but MANY DIFFERENT KINDS. So, to those >who bought our record-God bless. those who downloaded it-no hard feelings >at all-we will try to make our next record better, so that you might find >it >worthy of a purchase this time around. > >meditate on this, I will. > >hugs > >j > >_________________________________________________________________ >Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. >http://www.hotmail.com > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org >For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org >
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2002-07-17 22:23EggyToastAt 05:04 PM 7/17/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Yes, but, how many people also used a P2P to get
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EggyToast
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Date:
Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:23:00 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] music thievery (long and ranty -- sorry!)
Reply to:
Re: [idm] music thievery
permalink · <5.1.0.14.2.20020717170952.00b6de88@mail.eggytoast.com>
At 05:04 PM 7/17/2002 -0500, you wrote:
quoted 7 lines Yes, but, how many people also used a P2P to get a sample of>Yes, but, how many people also used a P2P to get a sample of >the album, discovered they liked it, and then went out and >bought it? It can also be seen as free promotion to the >artists, especially those who do not get much (if any) radio >support. I use kazaa to sample things I *may* like, and if >I do, I go to the store and purchase it. I have done this dozens >and dozens of times, and I doubt I am alone.
I would pick up more cds if they didn't cost so much in stores. I just can't bring myself to spend 20 bucks on a cd, and since a lot of this stuff is obscure, you can't find it at local stores so you have to have it shipped to you, which tacks on another couple bucks to the lower price, so it's still 17-19 bucks even for the more independent stuff. I downloaded the mp3's to the first Latin Playboys cd (a side project of david hidalgo and louie perez from los lobos, with mitchell froom and tchad blake, blah blah blah) and liked it so much that I wanted the cd. But no one around here had it, and that was even on a larger label (from '93, but still!). So I was looking around online, and the cheapest I could find it for was 15 bucks. Well, I like it, but with shipping it would've been around 18 bucks. So I picked it up off ebay for 5.50 and paid 8 bucks for it. Well, that's cheaper than a nice meal out, so that's no problem. But that's me; perhaps I'm a cheapskate. Even if I wasn't downloading music occasionally, I'd still be hunting around for cheaper deals. And I'm not one of those yahoos on soulseek who needs to get releases the week before they're released -- I'm happy reading reviews if the only way to get mp3's are to deal with geeks that only want "hot trades" :D rant rant rant. I still think they cost too much. A cd costs nearly as much as a DVD -- sometimes a lot more -- and there's a LOT more production going into movies and the like compared to your average album. I love supporting the little guy, but, you know, I'd rather see an artist having a simple web page with a "help me make my next album -- donate!" button on it than pay $20 for a cd. Maybe that's just my pie in the sky. If I could give boards of canada some money to help them make their next album, I'd be all over it. Is that being a sell-out? Maybe it is... But if you're so worried about making money FROM your fans, doesn't it follow that you should try to please your fans? And what better way to please your fans than to find out what type of music they want and make that so they buy your stuff up instead of downloading the mp3's? Look at all the people that didn't buy Autechre's "Confield" but downloaded the mp3's and decided "nah, too out there" Would they have had more sales if they had repackaged tri-repetae and passed it through some low-pass filters with the resonance on random? Perhaps. But then they might have lost other fans who said "i already own this CD -- I don't want to buy it again." I think the reason certain artists are popular is because they make music for themselves that they like, yet there are other people out there that like it as well. Would boards of canada, autechre, marumari, cex, and others still be making music if people didn't buy *anything*? Probably. it may not be as snazzy or interesting, but they'd still be doing it regardless of how much they sold or made. blah blah blah. nevermind. you continue making your music, and I'll continue thinking about buying it even if there are mp3's or not. I haven't downloaded anything but 1 or 2 songs in the past 3 months and i've bought about the same (maybe 3 cds and 1 12"). So you're not losing money off me -- so perhaps my opinion doesn't matter? derek ------- eggytoast.com ------- with lather thingy --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2002-07-17 23:11MxyzptlkAt 05:04 PM 7/17/2002, IDM Poll wrote: >Yes, but, how many people also used a P2P to get a
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Mxyzptlk
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IDM Poll , ,
Date:
Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:11:10 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] music thievery
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Re: [idm] music thievery
permalink · <5.1.0.14.2.20020717180839.02571d90@pop3.norton.antivirus>
At 05:04 PM 7/17/2002, IDM Poll wrote:
quoted 7 lines Yes, but, how many people also used a P2P to get a sample of>Yes, but, how many people also used a P2P to get a sample of >the album, discovered they liked it, and then went out and >bought it? It can also be seen as free promotion to the >artists, especially those who do not get much (if any) radio >support. I use kazaa to sample things I *may* like, and if >I do, I go to the store and purchase it. I have done this dozens >and dozens of times, and I doubt I am alone.
I'm sure you're correct, but stop and think about it for a second...you'd have to be pretty clueless to walk up to someone and TELL them you downloaded their record for free, right? It seems to me that a person who can't think THAT far past their own nose probably isn't going to beat a trail out to support what they like. jeff --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2002-07-17 23:20Brandon SmithP2p a tool. It is not an intrinsic good or evil. I would tell anyone that I downloaded the
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Brandon Smith
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Date:
Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:20:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
Re: [idm] music thievery
Reply to:
Re: [idm] music thievery
permalink · <20020717232000.33753.qmail@web12507.mail.yahoo.com>
P2p a tool. It is not an intrinsic good or evil. I would tell anyone that I downloaded their music. Small or large artist alike.. If they have a problem with it, I certainly can think of greater misfortunes. I used to run into Marumari on Napster [yes, the real Marumari, not a screen name...I actually arranged to buy a record off of him personally - I suppose he had some extra copies at his house, on Napster a while back] I believe I met him on soulseek as well once or twice, but I know I met one of the guys from Stars as Eyes. He could have been putting me on, but who would lie about *that* group. Also, I would gladly share their [then months unreleased, and entirely unavailable] new ep with me. I know these guys aren't exactly Boards of Canada, but idm isn't exactly pop music to begin with, either. I read a post by Hrvatski, on this list I believe, where he basically said please feel free to share this music so long as 1) you don't claim it as your own and 2) do not sell it to profit beyond the cost of the media you are using to transport the music. I suppose he sees this as publicity. I hate to put words into anybody's mouth, so vat, if I'm mistaken - 1001 apologies. As a completely unsigned and unheard artist, I obviously would not only not care, but be glad if I come across my tracks on soulseek. Virtually everyone was once unheard, and would probably have the same high opinion of finding their music shared. This is publicity. Of course, shard music is not controlled publicity, but would certainly be welcome none the less by most unsigned artists. When this artist takes off unfortunately their opinion over the sharing of their music may shift, but again this happens to be a factor that they never did have control over to begin with; it is just a matter of how appealing it may seem at various stages. Would it be hypocritical to enjoy the benefits of such vast exposure until it hurts your bottom line? Now Hrvatski is well established, but I suppose he feels he could use more publicity. At least he did a few months ago when I read his post. There are clear conflicts when it comes to the accessibility of music, both released and unreleased, and the deregulated nature of p2p is, in essence, why artists' exposure has increased exponentially over the past few years. This would benefit, at the very lease, the factor of name recognition. I doubt Mike P. is surfing the web looking for the latest names of 'bedroom bandits', but I also read somewhere that he first heard of bit meddler through similar channels. Of course it was the traditional 'demo' that resulted in the release of his first 7", I'm quite certain. Oh, and as for the type of person who would assume that I wouldn't buy their music if I thought it was worth it after I downloaded it - especially in the case of me taking the time to *tell* them in person that I enjoyed - I wouldn't give a shit what they might think of me to begin with. Like it or not people, about 90% of my ordered and bought music [hi Geoff.] comes as a direct result of my downloading it to begin with. ov
quoted 15 lines I'm sure you're correct, but stop and think about it> > I'm sure you're correct, but stop and think about it > for a second...you'd > have to be pretty clueless to walk up to someone and > TELL them you > downloaded their record for free, right? It seems to > me that a person who > can't think THAT far past their own nose probably > isn't going to beat a trail out to support what they > like. > > jeff > > >
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2002-07-18 00:54MxyzptlkAt 06:20 PM 7/17/2002, you wrote: >P2p a tool. It is not an intrinsic good or evil. Nobody
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Mxyzptlk
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Brandon Smith
Cc:
Date:
Wed, 17 Jul 2002 19:54:27 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] music thievery
Reply to:
Re: [idm] music thievery
permalink · <5.1.0.14.2.20020717193943.0257eb80@pop3.norton.antivirus>
At 06:20 PM 7/17/2002, you wrote:
quoted 1 line P2p a tool. It is not an intrinsic good or evil.>P2p a tool. It is not an intrinsic good or evil.
Nobody said it was. ---------
quoted 3 lines I would tell anyone that I downloaded their music.>I would tell anyone that I downloaded their music. >Small or large artist alike.. If they have a problem >with it, I certainly can think of greater misfortunes.
How glib. So much for giving a rip about what anyone else thinks. --------
quoted 1 line I used to run into Marumari on Napster... [>I used to run into Marumari on Napster... [
quoted 5 lines but I know I met one of the guys from Stars as Eyes...>but I know I met one of the guys from Stars as Eyes... > >I read a post by Hrvatski, on this list I believe, >where he basically said please feel free to share this >music...
----------------- That's fine. But some people (as is obvious from the post to which we both allude) who make music do not feel that way. All I am suggesting is that it's a bit selfish to write how they feel off as if it's insignificant - in fact, I'm not suggesting it...I'm stating it. Sure, it's good publicity - no denying that. And I don't think the person who posted the beginning piece was incriminating any/everyone who downloads tracks and never buys them. Don't miss his point though; if the IDM community (and I use the term loosely) dips from the well until it's dry, they only have themselves to blame when there's a drought. And don't miss my point. Other people - who make the music and have a right to feel infringed upon IF indeed they do - see things differently...and I would argue that as the artists in question (re: the person who posted), probably have more warrant in feeling what they feel about it than those who "don't give a shit" what anybody else thinks. Once again, I don't think the poster was referring to people who download, like it and then support the artist. 'Nuff said. jeff --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2002-07-18 20:10Brandon Smith[I decided not to send this one to the list....for obvious reasons. It may seem written in
From:
Brandon Smith
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Mxyzptlk
Cc:
Date:
Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:10:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
Re: [idm] music thievery (it is long - if you don't care, don't read...)
Reply to:
Re: [idm] music thievery
permalink · <20020718201046.94207.qmail@web12507.mail.yahoo.com>
[I decided not to send this one to the list....for obvious reasons. It may seem written in places as though it is speaking to everyone, but I decided to just respond to you. I love this topic and the length is getting a bit absurd. ;) ]
quoted 4 lines P2p a tool. It is not an intrinsic good or evil.> >P2p a tool. It is not an intrinsic good or evil. > > Nobody said it was. > ---------
Actually the above was a....thesis, if you will. ;) A statement not refuting anyone in particular. I used it to simply warm up my primary point - it takes an understanding of the motivations behind downloading before one can write them off as freeloaders.
quoted 9 lines I would tell anyone that I downloaded their music.> >I would tell anyone that I downloaded their music. > >Small or large artist alike.. If they have a > problem > >with it, I certainly can think of greater > misfortunes. > > How glib. So much for giving a rip about what anyone > else thinks. > --------
I'm writing a fairly involved post on the subject. Of course I care about what everyone else thinks of the subject...except people who keep saying "NOT THIS SUBJECT AGAIN!" Christ, I don't read about 75% of the idm list either, but I happen to be interested in this topic and have not seriously explored it before on this list. (See, Donna S.'s previous post for additional instruction.) If you want I'll drive to your town and hit the fucking delete button for you. Anyway, I write this in the *context of idm* as the community has somewhat different standards from the major labels, and the sharing of music could have a different meaning for us. Actually indy music in general. I do not care, as stated at the end of my initial post, what the artist would feel about me personally prior to understanding my motivations *for* downloading. I refer to the person who posted "Who would be stupid enough to tell someone they downloaded someone's album?" I would.
quoted 7 lines That's fine. But some people (as is obvious from the> That's fine. But some people (as is obvious from the > post to which we both > allude) who make music do not feel that way. > All I am suggesting is that it's a bit selfish to > write how they feel off > as if it's insignificant - in fact, I'm not > suggesting it...I'm stating it.
Okay, so sould we make a list of people who care and people who do not care? The reason I think many people who do voice this opinion are simply being realistic - it is not going to go away, so I might as well seek something positive and appeal to my fan's sense of fairness. This, as opposed to saying nothing. I notice, and this of course is mere speculation, that most semi-major to major artists avoid this topic all together because there is no essential good/bad to it. It is just how it is used. The only time I will "write off" an artists opinion is when I learn that their opinion involves a blanket generalization of file sharers as wicked people - those who would judge simply by the statement "I downloaded your album" period. Not why it was downloaded, or how it was dealt with after listening to it. They have this right to feel this way of course, but it is not at all practical in our culture. Don't miss his point
quoted 5 lines though; if the IDM> though; if the IDM > community (and I use the term loosely) dips from the > well until it's dry, > they only have themselves to blame when there's a > drought.
Certainly there is potential that many many parties involved will lose capital over the abuses we write of, and that would be very unfortunate. The whole argument of the well drying up, though? I can think of few who sequence with dollar signs in their eyes to begin with. Perhaps I only speak for myself, but I write music for music's sake as first priority. I'm no Nautilis, but I'm proud of what I do. If I can raise capitol from it, great, but as far as I'm concerned this is not the motivation behind a good bit of music out there. I would send cdrs out to anyone asking me for one, for no profit whatever. Postage, etc. Just as long as they tell me what they think. It is not good that the industry will hurt to some degree, but the idea of a "well drying up" is just impossible for me to fathom. If I did profit it would be nice to offset my cost of production, but I don't use a studio for anything. I just have a good bit invested in home equipment. Some of my favorite releases have been done in bedrooms across the world. People shouldn't have to resort to this technique, and they deserve a return on their investments, studio or home alike - this is just simply the reality of why the well will never really "dry up" as it may in terms of pop music - music explicitly for profit.
quoted 9 lines And don't miss my point. Other people - who make the> And don't miss my point. Other people - who make the > music and have a right > to feel infringed upon IF indeed they do - see > things differently...and I > would argue that as the artists in question (re: the > person who posted), > probably have more warrant in feeling what they feel > about it than those > who "don't give a shit" what anybody else thinks.
We have an equal stake in the methods of understanding what we are to invest in - production and support of that production. The reality (and I stress reality) of file sharing provides an enviornment for anyone, artist and consumer alike, to make value judgements. I do not have to "give a shit" about one's personal opinion of my actions, prior to seeking a positive or negative justification, to maintain an explicit opinion of the subject as a whole. I will concede that there is something unfair about the artist not having a choice to begin with concerning the sharing of their intellectual property. This unfairness, however, is simply not large enough to offset the potential good that file sharing does for me - and many other artists that seem to have a positive outlook on it.
quoted 4 lines Once again, I don't think> Once again, I don't think > the poster was referring to people who download, > like it and then support > the artist. 'Nuff said.
And I agree with that entirely. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Brandon Smith __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2002-07-18 23:22MxyzptlkAt 03:10 PM 7/18/2002, you wrote: > > >P2p a tool. It is not an intrinsic good or evil. --
From:
Mxyzptlk
To:
Brandon Smith
Cc:
Date:
Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:22:19 -0500
Subject:
Re: [idm] music thievery (it is long - if you don't care, don't read...)
Reply to:
Re: [idm] music thievery (it is long - if you don't care, don't read...)
permalink · <5.1.0.14.2.20020718173642.01e17ab0@pop3.norton.antivirus>
At 03:10 PM 7/18/2002, you wrote:
quoted 1 line P2p a tool. It is not an intrinsic good or evil.> > >P2p a tool. It is not an intrinsic good or evil.
---------
quoted 8 lines Nobody said it was.> > Nobody said it was. > > --------- > >Actually the above was a....thesis, if you will. ;) >A statement not refuting anyone in particular. I used >it to simply warm up my primary point - it takes an >understanding of the motivations behind downloading >before one can write them off as freeloaders.
I don't think anyone was writing off the whole group of downloaders as freeloaders. I know many people who d/l to see if they want to buy. I don't know too many people with brains (especially IDM artists, who get squat for exposure anyway) who have a problem with that. I know I don't. None of this is about downloading in general, is it (it wasn't in the case of the post which started this)? It's about some modicum of respect for the artists whose music you download. Some artists don't mind, others do. Just as you can't treat all people who d/l as though the are part of a hive mind, nor can you do so with artists.
quoted 10 lines I would tell anyone that I downloaded their music.> > >I would tell anyone that I downloaded their music. > > >Small or large artist alike.. If they have a > > problem > > >with it, I certainly can think of greater > > misfortunes. > > > > How glib. So much for giving a rip about what anyone > > else thinks. > > -------- >
----------------
quoted 8 lines I do not care, as stated at the end of my initial>I do not care, as stated at the end of my initial >post, what the artist would feel about me personally >prior to understanding my motivations *for* >downloading. >I refer to the person who posted "Who would be stupid >enough to tell someone they downloaded someone's >album?" >I would.
Go back to the original, anecdotal context. It was implied (or at least understood to be so) by the person who posted that the downloader, in this case, liked the record and seemingly had no intention of buying it. The poster seemed to feel he DID have an idea about the downloader's intentions or else he wouldn't have posted what he did. That sort of negates your premise; you seem to be arguing a different case than the one which was the basis for this thread. While I understand (from your "thesis" above) that you are developing some kind of platform about downloading in general, it seems to me like what you are saying doesn't have a whole lot to do with the anecdote in question. ----------------------
quoted 14 lines That's fine. But some people (as is obvious from the> > That's fine. But some people (as is obvious from the > > post to which we both > > allude) who make music do not feel that way. > > All I am suggesting is that it's a bit selfish to > > write how they feel off > > as if it's insignificant - in fact, I'm not > > suggesting it...I'm stating it. > >Okay, so sould we make a list of people who care and >people who do not care? The reason I think many people >who do voice this opinion are simply being realistic - >it is not going to go away, so I might as well seek >something positive and appeal to my fan's sense of >fairness. This, as opposed to saying nothing.
I'm certain it isn't going to go away as well. However, I think that sort of fatalist approach to just about anything is destructive. Imagine that attitude toward any situation which might have been historically regarded as unjust : "we can't do anything about it, so we might as well just get on with life". Since you are inclined to speak up on this end of the issue, I would imagine that if you DID feel your rights to intellectual property were being infringed upon, YOU would have something to say about it. I thought the poster took a pretty mild stance and was basically asking people to be considerate in their downloading and somewhat respectful to the artists. That didn't seem like too much to ask from where I sit. In fact, the way I read what you wrote above (IF I understand what you mean - and I'm not certain I do), it looked to me like the poster WAS appealing to his fan's sense of fairness - at least in that he posted to this list. Look what he got back when he did! -----------------
quoted 8 lines The only time I will "write off" an artists opinion is>The only time I will "write off" an artists opinion is >when I learn that their opinion involves a blanket >generalization of file sharers as wicked people - >those who would judge simply by the statement "I >downloaded your album" period. Not why it was >downloaded, or how it was dealt with after listening >to it. They have this right to feel this way of >course, but it is not at all practical in our culture.
Again, I don't think the point you are arguing applies necessarily to this case. Nobody generalized any group as "wicked" and I believe the poster thought he HAD an inkling about the downloader's intentions to begin with. Additionally, I don't think it would be **practical** to be upset over having, say, your CD collection ripped off from your car (regardless of why the person who took them felt he was justified in doing so, etc.), but I hardly think that would stop you from being upset about it.
quoted 35 lines Don't miss his point> > > >Don't miss his point > > though; if the IDM > > community (and I use the term loosely) dips from the > > well until it's dry, > > they only have themselves to blame when there's a > > drought. > >Certainly there is potential that many many parties >involved will lose capital over the abuses we write >of, and that would be very unfortunate. >The whole argument of the well drying up, though? I >can think of few who sequence with dollar signs in >their eyes to begin with. Perhaps I only speak for >myself, but I write music for music's sake as first >priority. I'm no Nautilis, but I'm proud of what I do. >If I can raise capitol from it, great, but as far as >I'm concerned this is not the motivation behind a good >bit of music out there. I would send cdrs out to >anyone asking me for one, for no profit whatever. >Postage, etc. Just as long as they tell me what they >think. It is not good that the industry will hurt to >some degree, but the idea of a "well drying up" is >just impossible for me to fathom. If I did profit it >would be nice to offset my cost of production, but I >don't use a studio for anything. I just have a good >bit invested in home equipment. Some of my favorite >releases have been done in bedrooms across the world. >People shouldn't have to resort to this technique, and >they deserve a return on their investments, studio or >home alike - this is just simply the reality of why >the well will never really "dry up" as it may in terms >of pop music - music explicitly for profit.
Perhaps it won't "dry up" in the way you speak. Imagine a world with more of the formulated FM radio pap which we all loathe, though. Imagine a world where your favorite IDM/Whatever artists are NOT nearly as available for purchase/exposure as they are now. Imagine a world where you HAVE to resort to mail order direct from every artist (I'm doing a reductio absurdum here to make a point, which is that your favorite sources like PJ, PBE, FE, Rioux's, etc. have all given up the biz because distros have given up, etc.) who can only do the bedroom gig. My question is : CAN you take this to a point where we put the artists out of biz? Human greed says "yes". Do we collectively give a shit then? Please keep this contextualized. This is not a pro RIAA rant; this is a "let's not chew off the hand of the artist that feeds us and act like they shouldn't care" rant.
quoted 13 lines And don't miss my point. Other people - who make the> > And don't miss my point. Other people - who make the > > music and have a right > > to feel infringed upon IF indeed they do - see > > things differently...and I > > would argue that as the artists in question (re: the > > person who posted), > > probably have more warrant in feeling what they feel > > about it than those > > who "don't give a shit" what anybody else thinks. > >We have an equal stake in the methods of understanding >what we are to invest in - production and support of >that production.
I'm not sure the stakes are equal. I'm not sure that everyone who is downloading feels this responsibility, either.
quoted 7 lines The reality (and I stress reality)> The reality (and I stress reality) >of file sharing provides an enviornment for anyone, >artist and consumer alike, to make value judgements. I >do not have to "give a shit" about one's personal >opinion of my actions, prior to seeking a positive or >negative justification, to maintain an explicit >opinion of the subject as a whole.
Nobody said you do. I was simply vying for some level of courtesy for the artist. It is not a novelty in today's world that I should have to do so - it is, however (imo), a shame.
quoted 7 lines I will concede that there is something unfair about>I will concede that there is something unfair about >the artist not having a choice to begin with >concerning the sharing of their intellectual property. > This unfairness, however, is simply not large enough >to offset the potential good that file sharing does >for me - and many other artists that seem to have a >positive outlook on it.
My problem with that statement lies in the focus on "me" and the power "me" has to adjudicate in matters concerning how "unfair" it has to be to the "other" to be a problem for "me". Looks like that idea of shared responsibility you conceded to above was subject to a whim which has suddenly evaporated.
quoted 1 line Thank you for taking the time to respond.>Thank you for taking the time to respond.
No problem. Thanks for considering my response. I will not post anything back to the list concerning this, so if you wish to continue the volley, please go private. I think we have pretty much said what we are going to say, though. jeff --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2002-07-18 09:32DavidASim@aol.comIn a message dated 7/17/02 11:36:45 PM GMT Daylight Time, eggy@eggytoast.com writes: (abou
From:
To:
Date:
Thu, 18 Jul 2002 05:32:28 EDT
Subject:
Re: [idm] music thievery (long and ranty -- sorry!)
permalink · <1a7.545dece.2a67e52c@aol.com>
In a message dated 7/17/02 11:36:45 PM GMT Daylight Time, eggy@eggytoast.com writes: (about file sharing) Please please please can we not have this argument... since I first joined idml, I've seen it come up umpteen times: every time, all the same arguments are used, n thousand innocent bystanders get clogged inboxes, and precisely noone changes the way that they think and act because of it. Thankyou David --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org
2002-07-18 16:02donna summer>Please please please can we not have this argument... since I first joined >idml, I've se
From:
donna summer
To:
,
Date:
Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:02:02 -0400
Subject:
Re: [idm] music thievery (long and ranty -- sorry!)
permalink · <F6Oci2fcILXNDHx3u1A00017010@hotmail.com>
quoted 5 lines Please please please can we not have this argument... since I first joined>Please please please can we not have this argument... since I first joined >idml, I've seen it come up umpteen times: every time, all the same >arguments >are used, n thousand innocent bystanders get clogged inboxes, and precisely >noone changes the way that they think and act because of it.
Listen I'm all for talking about different stuff (GOD, PLEASE!!), but don't fucking wine about haveing your inbox clogged- it's the IDM list. It's full of needless shit and that's the way it works. Just block out spammers or unsunscribe if it's too much for you. Donna S. (I've seen this complaint often, and it's lame, sorry to flame you personally) _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: idm-unsubscribe@hyperreal.org For additional commands, e-mail: idm-help@hyperreal.org